# e-petition for a cashless scrap metal trade



## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

How much safer would our splores be if it wasn't for metal thieves?

Take into account the amount of hazards they cause us

Just the drain covers missing and floorboards removed to steal copper pipe is a massive danger, when you factor in the extra water damage to buildings due to lead theft from roofs the immediate dangers are real.

Also on top of this is the extra hassle we receive from sec and the police as their natural suspicion is that you are up to no good, searching rucksacks for cable cutters etc, and having to almost prove that you are not a metal pirate

Anyway, here's a link to an e-petition that some chap has cleverly started on the government petitions website, its sitting at 37,000 signatures and needs 100,000 to be debated in parliament, so get signing guys 

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/406

The outline of the petition is thus...........

_Due to a significant rise in value, metal has become a much sought after commodity. This increased demand has resulted in a sharp rise in metal theft nationally. Metal fencing, gates, manhole covers and other metallic items are stolen on a regular basis. Property is raided for lead, copper and cabling. War memorials and statues have been taken. Overhead power lines are stolen at serious risk to personal safety with huge costs for replacement and major inconvenience to the public. Historically the scrap metal trade has been a cash in hand industry. This creates difficulties as there is no audit trail, making identification of individuals who may be trading stolen metal or who may be committing tax or benefits fraud, a difficult proposition. An amendment to the Scrap Metal Merchants Act 1964 to prohibit cash transactions would make payment by cheque or directly into a bank account mandatory and would be a significant component in reducing metal theft._


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## highcannons (Nov 20, 2011)

Good idea mate, I will pass the link on


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## UrbanX (Nov 20, 2011)

Nice one Nelly, consider it signed!


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## dangerous dave (Nov 20, 2011)

im going to play devils advocate here and say how many times have u used access caused by land pirates after copper id say without em busting stuff open to get at the copper a lot of the ue sites would still be secure


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## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

dangerous dave said:


> im going to play devils advocate here and say how many times have u used access caused by land pirates after copper id say without em busting stuff open to get at the copper a lot of the ue sites would still be secure



Interesting point Dave, but a true Ninja wouldn't need the metal thieves to open it up for them


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## night crawler (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for that hopefully if that goes through they it will stop the pikeys stealing then they will have to go back where that came from.


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## lil-lilly (Nov 20, 2011)

night crawler said:


> then they will have to go back where that came from.



birmingham ?


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## woody65 (Nov 20, 2011)

think of the amount of tax and vat the government get from the replacements,cant see them doing anything


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## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

woody65 said:


> think of the amount of tax and vat the government get from the replacements,cant see them doing anything



??? Replacement what Woody????

Comfuddled


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## smiler (Nov 20, 2011)

Although I agree wholeheartedly with the petition and have added my name to it, I do have issues with some of the posts that seem to imply that cashless transactions will solve the problem of metal theft, and rid us of pikeys, because I don’t believe that it will, I also feel that in many folks minds Pikey = N/A Travellers/ Gypsy, again in my experience this is not true, the damage done to property by these opportunist thieves is catastrophic as I am sure we have all seen while exploring and anything that slows the swine up for awhile has to be supported and applauded.

Here Ends This Months Rant


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## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

smiler said:


> Although I agree wholeheartedly with the petition and have added my name to it, I do have issues with some of the posts that seem to imply that cashless transactions will solve the problem of metal theft, and rid us of pikeys, because I don’t believe that it will, I also feel that in many folks minds Pikey = N/A Travellers/ Gypsy, again in my experience this is not true, the damage done to property by these opportunist thieves is catastrophic as I am sure we have all seen while exploring and anything that slows the swine up for awhile has to be supported and applauded.
> 
> Here Ends This Months Rant



Right in so many ways Smiler.

There is no reason that this should turn into a "bash the pikeys" session, as you say there are as many opportunist thieves as well.

I don't necessarily think that the cashless option is the cure either, but its a start.

Personally I think that scrap metal dealers should have to use a "Prove It" scheme similar to the age scheme in pubs, i.e. if somebody brings in "certain" scrap, like used cable or used and removed copper piping or lead then the scrap dealer should have to by law make a record of the donor and request ID, maybe even a quick digital photo of the person (I had to do this when I hired a car from my local Ford dealer).

This alongside the cashless option should go a long way to eradicating the problem.

As Dangerous Dave mentioned earlier about access being opened up by the metal thieves thus making the entry simpler for us, it also opens access for the other breed of low life, the chav/graffer/arsonist and destroys the dere in that way too


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## krela (Nov 20, 2011)

dangerous dave said:


> im going to play devils advocate here and say how many times have u used access caused by land pirates after copper id say without em busting stuff open to get at the copper a lot of the ue sites would still be secure



It means that more sites wont be accessible, so what?


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## okidoke (Nov 20, 2011)

*metal theives*

Simple! Payment by bank transfer only....


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## klempner69 (Nov 20, 2011)

The scrap merchant I go to regulates what he gets offered..I go to them regularly because of my job..any fellas taking in very clean stripped wire/cabling are taken aside and questioned as to where they obtained the materials..if they cant offer a decent explanation,it is refused and reported.When I deal there,they take my name,address and car number which is on cctv.
I do know of dealers who simply take any metals regarding where it came from,but ultimately they will have to take it to one of the big dealers like my one.


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## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

klempner69 said:


> The scrap merchant I go to regulates what he gets offered..I go to them regularly because of my job..any fellas taking in very clean stripped wire/cabling are taken aside and questioned as to where they obtained the materials..if they cant offer a decent explanation,it is refused and reported.When I deal there,they take my name,address and car number which is on cctv.
> I do know of dealers who simply take any metals regarding where it came from,but ultimately they will have to take it to one of the big dealers like my one.



Of course there are the scrupulous scrap dealers out there, but I would guess that it is the minority, most of them are simply in it for the scrap cash.

About six months ago I had a wait and return job in my Taxi, 2 young lads (Not pikeys) with a big sports bag, took them to one of the local scrap merchants, I watched them empty out the bag of used copper pipe on to the scales and they jumped back in my cab to go back. £60 no questions asked 

Truth


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## TeeJF (Nov 20, 2011)

Great idea Nelly! We will both sign it.


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## Collingwood (Nov 20, 2011)

I gotta agree with D'dave, whilst these theiving little fookers cause huge amounts of damage, if it wasn't for them opening up the vast majority of sites that WE ALL look at, then the variety of sites would be limited to pillboxes and bus stops. 

A cashless system would only push the problem underground, where the less honest dealers would still deal with our 'travelling friends' When it comes down to it, scrap metal dealers make huge amounts of money from what they trade in, and they are unlikely to turn down their main source of income.
I myself have had quite a large quantity of copper stolen from my house when it was being rebuilt, but I soon realised that yeah it hurt, and yes, I was extremley pissed off when it happened, but the cops are not interested, (although they knew who it was!!), and a harsh lesson was learnt.
I also thought about the hundreds of sites that i've seen (not all reported on for my own reasons!), and how many of those wouldn't have been possible, if the small whole in the wall hadn't been made already.

I personally think its a sort of equilibrium between explorers and pikeys, neither likes the other, but because we share the same space, we 'co-exist'!, they make the access for us, and in return, they search our forums for new locations.

As for the ninja comment, if you were that good, you shouldn't be worried about a missing floorboard or 2!

Anyway rant over, you can all go back to your Daily mail now!!

C.


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## nelly (Nov 20, 2011)

Collingwood said:


> I gotta agree with D'dave, whilst these theiving little fookers cause huge amounts of damage, if it wasn't for them opening up the vast majority of sites that WE ALL look at, then the variety of sites would be limited to pillboxes and bus stops.
> 
> A cashless system would only push the problem underground, where the less honest dealers would still deal with our 'travelling friends' When it comes down to it, scrap metal dealers make huge amounts of money from what they trade in, and they are unlikely to turn down their main source of income.
> I myself have had quite a large quantity of copper stolen from my house when it was being rebuilt, but I soon realised that yeah it hurt, and yes, I was extremley pissed off when it happened, but the cops are not interested, (although they knew who it was!!), and a harsh lesson was learnt.
> ...



Well............

You had some bloody good points there until you decided to resort to personal insults 

1. I have never read the Daily Mail, but I assume that it is in your eyes a derogatory remark, maybe you should have considered the fact that it's Sunday, surely us plebs should be reading the Mail on Sunday? Duh?

2. I have never flinched at a missing floorboard and have been lucky enough not to, so far, twist/sprain/break an ankle for failing to notice one, but I'm sure my time for injuries will come as have a lot of the very experienced members on here

So I can't be bothered to actually comment on your serious points as they have paled into the shade of your more obnoxious comments.

Oh btw your quote " if it wasn't for them opening up the vast majority of sites that WE ALL look at, then the variety of sites would be limited to pillboxes and bus stops"

???

Hmm if you would be limited to Pill Boxes and Bus Stops without the help of villains then best give up now eh?

But then looking at the quality and photographic excellence of your reports, I'm sure thats not the case


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## Mid diesel (Nov 20, 2011)

Cashless trading is long overdue in the scrap industry -

Plenty of legitimate operators are fully in support of it too.


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## Collingwood (Nov 21, 2011)

No offence meant fella, but this comment came across as 'look at me, i'm better than the rest of you!



nelly said:


> Interesting point Dave, but a true Ninja wouldn't need the metal thieves to open it up for them



and I can assure you, if all there was to look at was pillboxes and the like, I wouldn't have got into this pastime in the first place.!

We all know the risks involved in our hobby, and in most cases are happy to live with them, make the most of it while you can!


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## niklas (Nov 21, 2011)

*Metal Theft*

It's all terribly well stating this, however, the vast majority of users of scrap yards for want of a better word are honest people, why should they have to cart a cheque off to a bank to processed? Surely the simpler answer would be to police the scrap yards themselves as is done in all Scandinavian countries. If a scrap yard has suspicious material in it, ergo, man hole covers etc then the scrap yard itself receives a fine and ultimately closure. When large cash or payment deals are completed at such places then an audit trail is available, therefore, say, a local authority disposing of old stock including road sewer covers is paid direct, the ordinary man in the street scrapping an old motor car need not be. In this way the market for rogue traders, ie, thieves would be removed therefore rendering their plunder useless without yet another bit of Socialist Nanny state dictating what individuals can or can't do. PLEASE DO NOT SIGN THIS PETITION GUYS...


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## nelly (Nov 21, 2011)

Collingwood said:


> No offence meant fella, but this comment came across as 'look at me, i'm better than the rest of you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A mate, did you not notice the little blue wink at the end of my "Ninja" comment, the internationally recognised symbol for "I'm joking/tongue in cheek comment" 

All is good and anyman like yourself who has cracked Pyestock not once but three times is no bus stop explorer either (and your photos are top notch too)


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## krela (Nov 21, 2011)

I've been in many many places before the metal miners found them....


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## Incognito (Nov 21, 2011)

I think people are being a little naive if you really think a cashless scrap system would deter metal thieves, drugs are illegal yet they are still pretty readily available in the UK. All this system will do is drive metal prices even higher as less will people will bother trading in small amounts and those that are doing it illegally will either go underground or melt most metals into something else so they can take in.

As collingwood has said a lot of sites do get opened up by metal thieves amongst other people, obviously Krela not all sites get opened this way, some are just not that well secured to begin with or are open for other reasons.

Cashless system won't deter anyone it just means the determined will just get fake ID and fake bank accounts as the rewards to some are still worth the effort. The only real way to stop metal thefts is for the price of metal to plummet to a point where its not worth their time and effort in stealing it.


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## nelly (Nov 21, 2011)

Incognito said:


> I think people are being a little naive if you really think a cashless scrap system would deter metal thieves, drugs are illegal yet they are still pretty readily available in the UK. All this system will do is drive metal prices even higher as less will people will bother trading in small amounts and those that are doing it illegally will either go underground or melt most metals into something else so they can take in.
> 
> As collingwood has said a lot of sites do get opened up by metal thieves amongst other people, obviously Krela not all sites get opened this way, some are just not that well secured to begin with or are open for other reasons.
> 
> Cashless system won't deter anyone it just means the determined will just get fake ID and fake bank accounts as the rewards to some are still worth the effort. The only real way to stop metal thefts is for the price of metal to plummet to a point where its not worth their time and effort in stealing it.



Prices of metal are not going to drop anytime soon, and certainly not by enough to make theft unattractive.

I'm not suggesting that the petition will eradicate metal theft but it will make it more difficult and maybe reduce the size of the problem.

You can't just give up on something that damages and harms just because some people will find a way around it, otherwise we would be selling fags and alcohol to 10 year olds and Uzi's to street gangs.

Like I said earlier, its not the answer, but its a start


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## Incognito (Nov 21, 2011)

its big money for not a great deal of metal, so what if they can't get cash a fake bank account will take care of that problem. The government would be far better off spending time on legislation for scrap dealers not for people taking scrap in. If the dealers get hit hard they may think twice about taking something in thats known to be nicked or something that is potentially dodgy. Even then that may cause metal prices to go up in further making it even more attractive to thieves.

BTW i'm not saying something shouldn't be done I just don't think this will help in the slightest bit other than to make more money for the banks due to the extra fees all the scrap dealers will have to pay for paying out in cheques (which are pretty much phased out) or by BACS. The other issue is for the genuine people taking scrap in could very easily be ripped off as they won't know if they have been paid or not until they check their accounts, sorry but if i'm remodelling and I take in 1k worth of copper I want to know for sure i'm getting my money!!


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## losttom (Nov 22, 2011)

Signed, not sure how much it will help though


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## Deepcover (Nov 22, 2011)

*same old.*

They should do as they do with my job..''test purchase's'' ..I'am a Doorman...if a customer come's to my bar that is under age,and i let them in, I get sacked and the bar gets a £5000 fine..go to a scrap yard with a bronze memorial plack... if they fail ..shut em down. simple.....when you go to a scrap yard you give your name,address, car reg..and your on cctv....so what difference doe's cashless deals make.... it's the unscrewpulus scrap dealers who accept the ww1/ww2 bronze placks that are the bad people in the game not the customer.


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## krela (Nov 22, 2011)

Incognito said:


> its big money for not a great deal of metal, so what if they can't get cash a fake bank account will take care of that problem. The government would be far better off spending time on legislation for scrap dealers not for people taking scrap in. If the dealers get hit hard they may think twice about taking something in thats known to be nicked or something that is potentially dodgy. Even then that may cause metal prices to go up in further making it even more attractive to thieves.
> 
> BTW i'm not saying something shouldn't be done I just don't think this will help in the slightest bit other than to make more money for the banks due to the extra fees all the scrap dealers will have to pay for paying out in cheques (which are pretty much phased out) or by BACS. The other issue is for the genuine people taking scrap in could very easily be ripped off as they won't know if they have been paid or not until they check their accounts, sorry but if i'm remodelling and I take in 1k worth of copper I want to know for sure i'm getting my money!!



I think you're all forgetting that there is actually new legislation coming in early next year which actually does put the responsibility on scrap dealers to verify the origin or the metal and get valid ID with addresses from people selling it. Yes this can be circumvented, so can any law. A law is only as good as its enforcement.

An e-petition is pointless. It only means something if it gets to 100,000 signatures, and even then because there is already new legislation on the way it wont get debated anyway.


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