# Altercation in Pembroke Dock



## AndyC (Feb 18, 2012)

Hi,

I am mainly a lurker but occasional poster on this fine forum. 

But an incident on Thursday left me not so much rattled, but it has bugged me. On this occasion I did not, and had no intention of entering private land. In fact you can inspect the very spot I was on Google Streetview.

The wife let me out for a couple of days and I went to SW Wales. On Thursday Morning I failed to find a pillbox that was by the Defensible Barracks (the name of a victorian fort that sits on the hill above the town). I hope I am not infringing forum rules here - no trespassing took place and the building is a well known landmark.

There were a couple of guys sand blasting the entrance.

Standing on the public road I took some photos of the great views down on Pembroke Dock, and a couple of the loopholes that surrounded the fort. Got into the car and about to drive off when a scruffy guy (who was not wearing protective clothing, so I guess was not cleaning but there in some capacity) indicated that I lower my window.

I did and asked him "Can I help You?"

He asked me if I had taken pictures of the fort. I said I did take a couple and that had not taken any pictures of the people working.

He shouted at me that it was someone's home! The owner had lots of trouble and it has been in the local papers. I must point out that the fort looks relatively derelict. It must have an owner, but a home?

Hoping to calm him by engaging with him, I asked what kind of trouble there had bee. His reply was "all sorts - people taking pictures!"

I then realised there was no point trying to tell him I was not doing anything outside of the law. I let him rant on (I was concerned that he might start demanding I clear the camera's memory - because that would be when things got nasty as there is no way that would happen).

After a final shout of "If you want to take photos you must ask" he slunk back into the fort.

Back at home now, I have double checked that it is totally lawful to take photos of a building from a public place (the fort and my home have something in common - Google Streetview). Also I have searched the local news (nothing about any trouble) but one article about a WWII training disaster there does have the email of a 'trustee', so I can contact him and hopefully find who the owner is.

Anyway, this has bugged me, and I would like to do something. To me my options are:

1. Forget about it (probably the most sensible, but by now you realise I would like to take some action).

2. Find the owners and write to them informing them that they have representatives that are harrassing people going about their lawful business.

3. Should I even report this to the local police? Local paper?

4. Any other advice you may give me?

Many thanks for bearing wioth me through this long ramble. I really would like to hear your thoughts.


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## krela (Feb 18, 2012)

Ignore it. It's not worth your time, stress or effort to do anything about it.

It is legal to take photos of ANYTHING from a public place, including people with or without their permission. Although more sensitive spots may get you interest from the police under terrorist laws.


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## Landsker (Feb 18, 2012)

Ignore them and take even more, your perfectly within your right to do so.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Feb 18, 2012)

The local 'agro' might originate from the owner doing things that the locals, or a group, do not agree with. If you want to go further - just for your own satisfaction - search the local Council's on line planning records and see if there are any planing applications / grants for the fort. If you find any details and you do wish to point out your 'legal rights', email your story to the local papers - otherwise just feel smug that you were completely within your rights and it was the 'owner' who was way out of order. 

My personal feeling is that if I did nothing about this and the obviously angry 'owner' attacked some innocent person in the future, I would feel somewhat guilty for not perhaps putting a stop to said person's activities. However that is just my take on the situation - put it down to an old age thing!


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## Seahorse (Feb 18, 2012)

Unfortunately, it's impossible to take photos in some locations without rubbing folks up the wrong way. I had one guy take a pop at me here in DP because... 

a. The pillbox I reported on was apparently on his land, so obviously he owns the road verge outside his house. Feasible I suppose. And...

b. Some of the photos had his house in it.

Since he was a bit shouty I have to admit to being less than sympathetic to his demand to remove the photos.


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## Exploretime (Feb 18, 2012)

A couple of things:

The pillbox you were looking for is the opposite side of the fort from the front entrance, and if you walk down the path on the golf course towards the back of the fort you will see a small mound of earth with a tiny bit of concrete showing. But its hardly visable and not worth waisting your time to visit it.
Also I was up by the Defensible barracks the other day and noticed the gates were open so I wondered inside and could see lots of building equipment but i managed to take a couple of pictures before i saw a worker, so I left before i was caught!
There was an article in the local paper about a month ago asking for information about a couple of musket guns that had been stolen from the fort recently, i would imagine it was probably one of the contractors working on the fort that stole them! But that is all that has been reported in the paper recently.

Mobile phone pictures: 


















I'd just forget what that guy said to you and move on. Its fun winding people like that up though, so I might go back soon and see if I bump into him,lol.


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## AndyC (Feb 18, 2012)

Dumptyboy said:


> I'd just forget what that guy said to you and move on. Its fun winding people like that up though, so I might go back soon and see if I bump into him,lol.



I wish I had taken a photo of him for you.


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## AndyC (Feb 18, 2012)

Dirus_Strictus said:


> The local 'agro' might originate from the owner doing things that the locals, or a group, do not agree with. If you want to go further - just for your own satisfaction - search the local Council's on line planning records and see if there are any planing applications / grants for the fort. If you find any details and you do wish to point out your 'legal rights', email your story to the local papers - otherwise just feel smug that you were completely within your rights and it was the 'owner' who was way out of order.
> 
> My personal feeling is that if I did nothing about this and the obviously angry 'owner' attacked some innocent person in the future, I would feel somewhat guilty for not perhaps putting a stop to said person's activities. However that is just my take on the situation - put it down to an old age thing!



My impression it was not the owner but one of the contractors who had decided to take things into his own hands.


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## night crawler (Feb 18, 2012)

Think my answer would have been I can photograph what I want fro the road now fuck off or I'll call the police. Dam cheek I think I'd have written to the fort owners complaining as well


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## smiler (Feb 18, 2012)

Put it down to experience and move on, as other folks have said it isn’t worth the bother. It was an interesting report and I thank you for taking the time to post it.


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## UE-OMJ (Feb 18, 2012)

Look into some 'undelete' software. In the past I've erased photos because I was asked to (by girlfriend  ) and then promptly un-deleted them afterwards. Hehe. If a situation starts to get really out of hand then delete them, go on your way and undelete, then deal with the situation professionally.

Google 'Handy Recovery'. It's what I use.

Steve


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## AndyC (Feb 18, 2012)

night crawler said:


> I think I'd have written to the fort owners complaining as well



Probably what I will do.


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## mookster (Feb 18, 2012)

I'd forget about that if I were you



AndyC said:


> Also I have searched the local news (nothing about any trouble) but one article about a WWII training disaster there does have the email of a 'trustee', so I can contact him and hopefully find who the owner is.



Interesting you should mention that - It occurred on 28th April 1942 during a lecture in a basement room concerning a new type of Land Mine which was on display in situ, and it exploded without warning killing all 19 people including my Great-Grandfather Major Geoffrey Garratt MBE. The incident was covered up during the war to avoid damaging morale but recently my father (his Grandson) received a letter from the Pembroke Dock trust inviting us to a memorial plaque unveiling on the 70th anniversary of the disaster so we're taking a trip to Pembroke at the end of April. Should be good.


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## highcannons (Feb 18, 2012)

You have my sympathy. Some people are just complete knob heads. But you shouldn't let them pass their angst on to you. If something like this really bothers you make a complaint to the police. They may say there's not much that can be done but try to insist that they at least talk to him/it. At least then if something happens to someone else later he has a previous warning and you have done your duty.

The un-delete prog's are a good idea any-rate, its dead easy to get your files back even if it wasn't intentional.

As an aside, I was once sat on a beach in Wales and a traffic warden came and gave me grief cos of where I had parked my bike (next to me) I gave him a sort of 'no speaky englese' and he swore and buggered off


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## flyboys90 (Feb 18, 2012)

As most have said here it aint worth wasting energy over tw.ts like that! but I have a feeling that the site is going to get photographed that much it will be like the opening night of a new movie!!


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## chizyramone (Feb 18, 2012)

Don't dwell on it Andy, you didn't do anything unlawful. As the other guys have said - put it down to experience.

'Scruffy' was wrong to hustle you on a public road.

Don't let this stop you from going to Pembrokeshire again.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Feb 18, 2012)

AndyC said:


> My impression it was not the owner but one of the contractors who had decided to take things into his own hands.



In view of Dumptyboy's information about the missing flintlocks, it was probably the scruffy one that helped in their removal. Always found that those who make the greatest noise or protest in these situations, always have most to hide.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Feb 18, 2012)

mookster said:


> It occurred on 28th April 1942 during a lecture in a basement room concerning a new type of Land Mine which was on display in situ, and it exploded without warning killing all 19 people including my Great-Grandfather Major Geoffrey Garratt MBE.



Because my late father and uncle (by marriage) were both originally in the Pioneer Corps and were involved in bomb/ordnance disposal through out WW11, I have an interest in military munitions and their disposal. I also know that a Major Garratt's name appears in the Corps 'Killed In Active Service' list, as do the names of three of my father's best friends. Obviously you know more about this incident than I do; but from reading what was available in print a number of years back, I always understood that the device that exploded was a German parachute mine. It being thought at the time that the time clock in the fuse, that was not originally functioning, was started when the device was jarred. 

If you study the history of the bombing raids on this area of the UK for early 1942, one finds that the Germans were deploying a new type of large aerial mine fitted with time fuses of very long duration and a device that detonated the mine immediately somebody tried to extract said time fuse. The secret of this new weapon was only discovered because the first attempt at defusing one of these mines, was carried out on a mine that had been damaged during the drop. This allowed the brave individual tasked with its disposal to fully extract the fuse and see the 'booby trap' device in the interior of the fuse pocket. This event allowed the necessary procedures to be draw up and passed on to the individuals in the field. It appears that the explosion that killed your Great-Grandfather could have been at one of these familiarisation lectures on German ordnance, certainly I can find no evidence in writing that there was a new type of Allied land mine being issued during the period mid 1941 to mid 1942. 

Perhaps you will find the true facts about the tragedy during your April visit.


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## night crawler (Feb 18, 2012)

mookster said:


> I'd forget about that if I were you
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting you should mention that - It occurred on 28th April 1942 during a lecture in a basement room concerning a new type of Land Mine which was on display in situ, and it exploded without warning killing all 19 people including my Great-Grandfather Major Geoffrey Garratt MBE. The incident was covered up during the war to avoid damaging morale but recently my father (his Grandson) received a letter from the Pembroke Dock trust inviting us to a memorial plaque unveiling on the 70th anniversary of the disaster so we're taking a trip to Pembroke at the end of April. Should be good.



Take lot's of photo's and if you see the asshole take his as well


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## mookster (Feb 18, 2012)

Dirus_Strictus said:


> Because my late father and uncle (by marriage) were both originally in the Pioneer Corps and were involved in bomb/ordnance disposal through out WW11, I have an interest in military munitions and their disposal. I also know that a Major Garratt's name appears in the Corps 'Killed In Active Service' list, as do the names of three of my father's best friends. Obviously you know more about this incident than I do; but from reading what was available in print a number of years back, I always understood that the device that exploded was a German parachute mine. It being thought at the time that the time clock in the fuse, that was not originally functioning, was started when the device was jarred.
> 
> If you study the history of the bombing raids on this area of the UK for early 1942, one finds that the Germans were deploying a new type of large aerial mine fitted with time fuses of very long duration and a device that detonated the mine immediately somebody tried to extract said time fuse. The secret of this new weapon was only discovered because the first attempt at defusing one of these mines, was carried out on a mine that had been damaged during the drop. This allowed the brave individual tasked with its disposal to fully extract the fuse and see the 'booby trap' device in the interior of the fuse pocket. This event allowed the necessary procedures to be draw up and passed on to the individuals in the field. It appears that the explosion that killed your Great-Grandfather could have been at one of these familiarisation lectures on German ordnance, certainly I can find no evidence in writing that there was a new type of Allied land mine being issued during the period mid 1941 to mid 1942.
> 
> Perhaps you will find the true facts about the tragedy during your April visit.



Thanks for that info, like I think we both found out information is fairly scarce but hopefully all will finally be revealed at the memorial on the 28th, I plan to take many photos....and maybe try my luck at getting inside the defensible barracks themselves, with permission obviously.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Feb 19, 2012)

Mookster

A couple of things I should have said in my original post, The phrase 'covered up for moral purposes' is a phrase added by modern historians/writers who find incidents like this were not reported widely at the time. Whilst this excuse appears logical if the explosion was caused by an Allied munition, if the deaths were cause by a delay fused or booby trapped German device the lack of reports were for a much more important reason. Such munitions were designed to kill and maim long after they were dropped or laid. If the 1942 explosion was cause by such a German mine, then the device was unfortunately working as it should, the Authorities kept quiet in the hope that the Germans would think the new munitions were not working and that they would give up deploying them.

This is certainly what happened in the case of the German Butterfly Bomb - the first cluster anti-personnel bomb ever made. They were dropped on the UK alongside the normal German bomb load mix with the specific intention of killing the rescuers and workmen clearing the rubble. First dropped on Ipswich in 1940, two very brave bomb disposal personnel manage to screw the fusing rods back into the fuses on some examples and this allowed the reverse engineering of the devices. It was impossible to defuse these nasty weapons and they had to be exploded in situ, the authorities kept very quiet about them so as not to encourage their use. This seems to have worked as far as the UK was concerned as the only major use after 1940 seems to be the 1943 raid on Cleethorpes and Grimsby.

That these Butterfly Bombs were unpredictable was brought into focus long after the war - in 1956 an experienced RAF Officer was examining one of these devices at the Upminster Bomb Cemetary when it detonated. He died in hospital the same day. 

I do wonder if it was one of these nasty little buggers or the larger version of the same that killed your relative - the Pioneer Corps were responsible for clearing bomb damage in sensitive military establishments etc., so the reason for the lecture / talk is perfectly understandable.

For those interested the Wiki entry on the Butterfly Bomb is a good initial source of information


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## Pedrfardd (May 18, 2012)

I'm from West Wales and have a friend who live in Pembroke Dock - If you are talking about the small fort on the estuary - the guy who owns it is a well known odd bod.. my friend walked his dog near there once and all he heard was 'F*CK OFF' from inside the fort.. pay no heed - Just one of them things and an odd angry individual...


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## PaulPowers (May 18, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about I think we all go through something similar from time to time


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## krela (May 18, 2012)

I almost got into a physical fight with a landowner once for walking down a footpath for which the public right of way had been temporarily removed by the council after a flood washed away a bridge. How the f**k was I supposed to know given that I was using the latest O/S map?! He claimed there were signs but there wasn't, and when I told him that he accused me of taking them down and vandalising his property!

I can understand some peoples frustrations but there's just no excuse for being aggressive about these things. Best ignored and laughed at.


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## t19hop (Sep 7, 2012)

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/9918044.Jail_for_man_who_refused__to_be_governed_/

Says it all really...


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## GEMTX (Sep 7, 2012)

Think...Glock .40.


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## dairylicked (Sep 7, 2012)

Had this issue with a legal byway, a woman bought the land either side of it and tried to block it of it threatening anyone who used it my mates and the locals caused as much (legal) agro as we could and spoke to the right people. eventualy she went bankrupt anyway and left.


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## night crawler (Sep 7, 2012)

Sounds like the arse got what he deserved.


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