# Strange experiences



## Teesskin (Jul 13, 2021)

I'm just going to throw this one out as a random post but has anyone had any strange or spooky experience's while out exploring these old derelict locations, I know from my own wanders around properties the feeling of not being alone or being watched it always there, and while sometimes we do come across drug users and homeless or kids id like to hear accounts from members if you have had anything happen.


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## Cuban B. (Jul 14, 2021)

Over ten years ago I was doing a solo bus trip round some UK asylums. Arriving at Cherry Knowle I hopped a couple of spikey fences, dropped in through the roof, then had a pleasant wander about the place. As this was to be my bed that night, I felt safe inside knowing there was no other obvious way in. When darkness started to fall I lay where the altar once stood in the chapel and tried to get some sleep. Remembering that this had the reputation of being "the most haunted asylum in the UK", I started to shite it as my mind wandered - I had a nightmare and a very disturbed sleep.

In the middle of the night I was woken up by screaming and howling. I lay frozen wondering whether it was coming from inside or out. Then it started to scream "I'm going to kill you, I'm going to hunt you down!" In a flash I gathered all my gear and started to bail out. A minute later I heard the crackle of a radio "It's only the local kids coming home from the pub", as security wandered by outside. Quite a relief. One of the few places I'm glad there was security.


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## Wrench (Jul 14, 2021)

I've never had any spooky experiences very probably because I do not believe in such magumbe


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## Teesskin (Jul 15, 2021)

Thanks for that write up Cuban B,


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## Naked Explore (Jul 15, 2021)

Been to so many places, even supposedly hunted ones such as climbing through Edinburgh Mary Kings Close at night and seen nothing supernatural. The only time I've felt a little unnerved was exploring a pre restored Balintore Castle. Climbing through the mouth of the vast collapsed bay window and over a very week beam looking down to the floor below to reach a narrow corridor that lead to the heart of the building. A continual bang was heard like a heartbeat and got louder and louder as I approached a door at the end with the floor narrowing in width and one side sloping open into the darkness of what's beneath. I reached the door and opened it, sneaking into the next room a sudden frozen gust blew me back, the door slamming shut behind, along with the last of the light followed by the sudden silence. Needless to say, I left fairly quickly. later that day, I looked over the grainy footage of my 1st video phone (2005) and saw what looked like a figure creeping out from a curtain in one of the rooms I passed by. I went back the next day, of course, had to finish exploring.


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## BikinGlynn (Jul 16, 2021)

Cuban B. said:


> Over ten years ago I was doing a solo bus trip round some UK asylums. Arriving at Cherry Knowle I hopped a couple of spikey fences, dropped in through the roof, then had a pleasant wander about the place. As this was to be my bed that night, I felt safe inside knowing there was no other obvious way in. When darkness started to fall I lay where the altar once stood in the chapel and tried to get some sleep. Remembering that this had the reputation of being "the most haunted asylum in the UK", I started to shite it as my mind wandered - I had a nightmare and a very disturbed sleep.
> 
> In the middle of the night I was woken up by screaming and howling. I lay frozen wondering whether it was coming from inside or out. Then it started to scream "I'm going to kill you, I'm going to hunt you down!" In a flash I gathered all my gear and started to bail out. A minute later I heard the crackle of a radio "It's only the local kids coming home from the pub", as security wandered by outside. Quite a relief. One of the few places I'm glad there was security.



dont believe myself either but still dont think Id have the bottle to do that on my own!


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## BikinGlynn (Jul 16, 2021)

The fact is that old buildings make noises & have unusual air flow etc.
Particularly at night (sound travels better at night you know as light molecules take up space restricting noise transfer) so I think a lot of it is down to that.
Dont get me wrong Iv been scared in plenty of places thinking wtf was that but more of the fear of some lunatic being in there with me (which did happen at a school recently) Its another reason I do it really for that adrenalin rush


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jul 16, 2021)

BikinGlynn said:


> (sound travels better at night you know as light molecules take up space restricting noise transfer) so I think a lot of it is down to that.



Absolute utter rubbish, no need to invent a new science!! During the daytime there is far more activity going on - thus the environment it filled with far more extraneous noise pollution. As darkness falls, the noise pollution is drastically reduced and thus one can hear a lot more of the fainter background sounds around one's self. This is very easy to prove in a very basic sound chamber. Most of my working life was spent in trying to find ways of controlling light and noise pollution in the environment!


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## verdigris (Jul 16, 2021)

I think some of these old lunatic asylums do have a certain atmosphere, perhaps it's the Victorian Gothic architecture, the long gloomy corridors, and the knowledge that many of the early patients were people who caused no harm but were either eccentric or simply a nuisance to their families, so were kept virtually a prisoner for their lifetime. 
I've worked in some of these old 'bins' such as Claybury at Woodford Green, and Warley in Brentwood. The former was one of the earliest to be sold off for exclusive housing. It's very expensive, but it's not the kind of environment I'd like to live in. I do think there is something creepy about them, even now. I must admit I don't like the look of Cherry Knowle !


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## night crawler (Jul 16, 2021)

Never had that experience but I have heard of some of the guys who were working at the Fair mile Hospital conversion have them. One security guard heard kids screming and playing around but could not see any thing when he looked. I think it shook him up from what one of the others I spoke to said. One of the managers hear them as well. Think is they never had kids there. Some of the people who bought properties there or moved in to the SODC homes have had experiences and moved. One place I do know may have a ghost is in one of the old women's wards. A woman who had been out to see her family for the day (back in the early days) came back had her tea then went off and hung herself in the toilet. Most of those blocks are part of peoples houses now. The grounds must have a few as well as well. more than a couple of people hav ebeen found hanging in the trees. Never seem any myself but I dare say people do hear things and it can freak them out.


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## BikinGlynn (Jul 16, 2021)

Dirus_Strictus said:


> Absolute utter rubbish, no need to invent a new science!! During the daytime there is far more activity going on - thus the environment it filled with far more extraneous noise pollution. As darkness falls, the noise pollution is drastically reduced and thus one can hear a lot more of the fainter background sounds around one's self. This is very easy to prove in a very basic sound chamber. Most of my working life was spent in trying to find ways of controlling light and noise pollution in the environment!


Ah absolute rubbish its to do with air temperature!



Physics Q & A - Sound transmits farther at night?


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## Naked Explore (Jul 16, 2021)

BikinGlynn said:


> The fact is that old buildings make noises & have unusual air flow etc.
> Particularly at night (sound travels better at night you know as light molecules take up space restricting noise transfer) so I think a lot of it is down to that.
> Dont get me wrong Iv been scared in plenty of places thinking wtf was that but more of the fear of some lunatic being in there with me (which did happen at a school recently) Its another reason I do it really for that adrenalin rush


It's the living that you need to watch out for


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## Wrench (Jul 16, 2021)

Naked Explore said:


> It's the living that you need to watch out for


Very tru


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## HughieD (Jul 17, 2021)

Nope. Don't believe in ghosts TBH. If you are trying hard to see something you will see what you want to see. But no, haven't had any of these experiences...


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## zeroUE (Jul 17, 2021)

I think a lot of people must go exploring on lsd, I agree with HughieD, if you're someone who's mind is expecting bumps in the night to be ghosts then yes you will find what you believe to be ghosts. 

However for everyone else who understands that the lead has been nicked from the roof, holes are rotting their way in and airflow moves things, water drips on things, wood expands and contracts at different rates, there may be another hidden explorer taking a shit, letting out groans as well as smells and there is always a rational explanation. 

It's my personal feeling that ghost hunting does not go hand in hand with what we do, it's pseudoscience bs, and let's face it "we found DEAD LADY in black banging EERIE doors at us in SPOOKY ASYLUM!!! ☠" is a much better click bait video on Goontube than the reality which would be "explored an asylum on a windy day and acted like a bunch of pre teen kids"


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## Bignickb (Jul 17, 2021)

I was in an old hotel when I suddenly heard a really loud bang! I knew that I was alone in there, when it happened I was in a pitch black kitchen. I still have no idea what it was.


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## Wrench (Jul 17, 2021)

zeroUE said:


> I think a lot of people must go exploring on lsd, I agree with HughieD, if you're someone who's mind is expecting bumps in the night to be ghosts then yes you will find what you believe to be ghosts.
> 
> However for everyone else who understands that the lead has been nicked from the roof, holes are rotting their way in and airflow moves things, water drips on things, wood expands and contracts at different rates, there may be another hidden explorer taking a shit, letting out groans as well as smells and there is always a rational explanation.
> 
> It's my personal feeling that ghost hunting does not go hand in hand with what we do, it's pseudoscience bs, and let's face it "we found DEAD LADY in black banging EERIE doors at us in SPOOKY ASYLUM!!! ☠" is a much better click bait video on Goontube than the reality which would be "explored an asylum on a windy day and acted like a bunch of pre teen kids"


Very well put


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## Wrench (Jul 17, 2021)

I'm just gonna say it.......ghosts do not exist in real life, period. They exist I'm films and folklore and in people's minds but that does not make them a thing.

Trolls exist in folklore but they ain't real either.

No such thing

There ....I said it.


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## wolfism (Jul 17, 2021)

Tbolt said:


> Trolls exist in folklore but they ain't real either.


To be fair there are usually a few trolls hidden away in the quiet corners of internet forums...!


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## AngleseyGuy (Jul 17, 2021)

I don't _want_ to believe in ghosts - I find it quite hard to reconcile with my Christianity - but nonetheless, I have seen one; and so has my wife.
We had a cottage in Ellesmere in Shropshire, built around 1620. It had two attics up a rickety oak stairway, and the rear one of these was our computer room.
On a couple of evenings, I had sensed I was being looked at, and upon turning round, nobody was there. This happened on about three nights.
On probably the fourth night, when I turned round, I caught a slightly hazy view of a woman sat in a wooden chair sewing. She wore a blue garment with like a white bib and a puritan style white bonnet.
Needless to say, it took me rather by surprise, but within a couple of seconds it faded and I put the experience down to screen fatigue or just seeing things.
The next night, I saw the same, but the image stayed longer.
That night when I went to bed, having said nothing of my 'vision' to my wife, I asked her if she'd noticed anything odd in the attic.
_I was especially careful not to drop the slightest hint of what I had seen as I wanted independent verification if she'd seen something too._
She was cagey in her response, but I pressed her without giving clues. Eventually she said 'do you mean the woman in the corner?'
To that I asked what she was wearing, and my wife gave me a description identical to what I had seen.
That is enough for me to collaborate the evidence of what I had seen.
There was a second 'presence' in the house which neither of us saw. When we moved in, we used to feed the cats in the cellar. The cellar opened at ground level to the back yard. Quite often the cats would go down to eat using the cat flap in the cellar door in the front room. Then they would both come hairing up at top speed with their fur on end and disappear into a bedroom and hide! My wife went down after a couple of weeks of this. She said out loud... "look.. we don't mind you being here. You've been here much longer than us, but can you please stop scaring the cats!" There was never any trouble after that.
A neighbour from some doors away who had a house similar to ours (they were supposed to be the surviving east and west wings of a manor house) was invited round to compare our building to hers. We let her look around, and she came back downstairs for wine with a big smile on her face. Do you know you have a maid still living in your attic room? She asked.
I don't think anyone can be convinced of this stuff unless they've seen it first hand, but there is my account.


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## Wrench (Jul 17, 2021)

Here's my problem with ghosts .....
They are if I'm not mistaken the spirts of those who have gone before  and lots of cultures and people around the world believe them to be true.....and lots is the key word here because lots is not all and if these spirts of the dead came back then every culture would have some knowledge of them and recorded history.

There have been many cases if you look hard enough of tribes and cultures who have no knowledge or concept of ghosts whatsoever but they clearly must have had dead people and that is my problem, if these things actually existed then every single culture in human history and even premodern human history would have depicted them in cave paintings and the like.
Lots do but not all and that is simply not possible.

Also by now there would be hard science to back up the ghost theory but science will actually tell you the opposite even after centuries of sightings.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotes not evidence.

I thoroughly belive there are things we cannot explain (yet) just as we once couldn't explain why the sun rises and falls as it does, but ghosts are a figment of human imagination to explain something we can't really explain.
Humans are good at this, we once believed the world was flat because we couldn't explain otherwise, some humans even believe love Island and eastenders are a good use of time and that peanut butter is actually made from peanuts  but in time we learn it isn't.

This is a long running argument for me as my wife believes she's seen ghost, .....she hasn't she is simply wrong, but ssshhh don't tell her I said that.


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## night crawler (Jul 17, 2021)

I came across some guy who went to Fair mile and posted some rubbish video about ghost hunting there and the and his paranormal experiences. He was just sat in his car talking for 15min of utter shite. He got quite shitty when I put him down about it. The idiot needed to get a life. He reminded me of a figure i saw on an album cover I have


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## Electric (Jul 17, 2021)

I had a relation who lived next to a churchyard. She said that "its the living that you need to be afraid of, not the dead". She wasn't wrong as it's the people I've encountered in these buildings that could be more dangerous but am pleased that to date this hasn't been the case. Kindly explorers, welcoming homeless, helpful youths, utter [insert word] vandals, friendly pikeys, unpredictable druggies and former employees returning out of curiosity.
Whilst having an open mind, I'm a firm believer in what I can see so conclude these are merely strange, not paranormal occurrences. Exploring mates are however convinced they've seen ghosts. I'm convinced it is 2AM and time to go home.

One thing RE: Sound, dilapidated buildings are not well sealed for air movement or noise entering from outside. I often hear unrelated things; people, cars etc. and the way it travels inside can heavily distort the sound or its apparent proximity.

This has been a really enjoyable thread to read with all of your thoughts, scientific theories and experiences.


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## MrsVance (Jul 18, 2021)

When I was a teenager (about 15/16) the village we lived in had a closed down swimming baths, I don't know how old the building was but I'd guess early 1900s at the latest when it was built. This small group of 3 or 4 of us used to go here ourselves when younger, but at that point it had been shut down for at least 5 years I think. I'm sure it's this place that got me interested in exploring old and abandoned places!

We would enter the building through a window that had no glass in it to explore all the places we couldn't get to when we were kids visiting the place, it was really interesting to me to see all the old fixtures and architecture. We'd often end up hanging out in the main pool area for a couple of hours as well afterwards with a little fire going in a metal drum that was there for light.

Now in this main pool room, there was an old (but fancy looking) balcony that I believe was not used even when it was open, I don't know why but you never saw anyone up there, and at this point you couldn't get to it as there was a locked door that I assumed led up to it. 

This one particular night there was just the two of us, we were sat on the old benches at the side of the pool like usual and I just had this nagging feeling like we were being watched, and I looked around the room and saw nothing unusual then up at that balcony. I saw what I could only describe as a tall slender man, dressed in a tailcoat and a sort of top hat, going from standing to leaning right over the balcony as if to look down into the pool. I couldn't see him in detail, it was more like a silhouette of a man. I genuinely don't see how it could have been any sort of shadow or reflection of anything. I absolutely crapped myself, and shouted at the lad who was with me about what I could see, and he looked up there and told us we needed to get out! I don't think we went back in there after that. 

I've never had an explanation for what that was, and unfortunately back then we didn't have camera phones so I never got any pictures of the place. I live nowhere near there now so I'm not sure what became of that old swimming baths, but if it was still abandoned I'd love to go back in there even after that. 

I've explored a few other buildings in the years since (I'm in my 30s now) but I've never had any other weird experiences. I'll never forget that though and I can still see it in my head now crystal clear!


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## Hayman (Jul 18, 2021)

AngleseyGuy said:


> I don't _want_ to believe in ghosts - I find it quite hard to reconcile with my Christianity - but nonetheless, I have seen one; and so has my wife.
> We had a cottage in Ellesmere in Shropshire, built around 1620. It had two attics up a rickety oak stairway, and the rear one of these was our computer room.
> On a couple of evenings, I had sensed I was being looked at, and upon turning round, nobody was there. This happened on about three nights.
> On probably the fourth night, when I turned round, I caught a slightly hazy view of a woman sat in a wooden chair sewing. She wore a blue garment with like a white bib and a puritan style white bonnet.
> ...


My wife was a Spiritualist. She told me that she had ‘seen’ people who were dead. As I do, she had welcome or unwelcome feelings when entering a building for the first time. When we were house hunting in 1980, she refused to come with me into one place for which we had the keys. It was a dark evening, and, on going in I found all the walls painted red or black; the interior doors had been replaced by saloon-style swing doors, and the owner had built a bunk bed out of rough timber. We did not take it.

The large, built 1880, country house I lived in as a boy in the 1950s – and my parents ran as a guest house – was converted into flats around the 1990s. When I visited the place some 20 years ago, the occupant of one of the flats asked me if we “saw the ghost” when we lived there. My answer was no, but a young woman who lived with her husband in what had been the groom’s quarters above the separate stable block had killed herself by putting her head in the gas oven. The occupant had seen a female figure on the path that led around one side of the main house.

While the human body is a physical thing, it runs on chemicals and electricity – especially the brain. Since electricity is generally invisible but its effects can be seen and felt, is it possible that ghosts are some form of after-death electricity recreating the shape and colours of the human body? To include non-human objects such as clothing is another matter.


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## Wrench (Jul 18, 2021)

Hayman said:


> My wife was a Spiritualist. She told me that she had ‘seen’ people who were dead. As I do, she had welcome or unwelcome feelings when entering a building for the first time. When we were house hunting in 1980, she refused to come with me into one place for which we had the keys. It was a dark evening, and, on going in I found all the walls painted red or black; the interior doors had been replaced by saloon-style swing doors, and the owner had built a bunk bed out of rough timber. We did not take it.
> 
> The large, built 1880, country house I lived in as a boy in the 1950s – and my parents ran as a guest house – was converted into flats around the 1990s. When I visited the place some 20 years ago, the occupant of one of the flats asked me if we “saw the ghost” when we lived there. My answer was no, but a young woman who lived with her husband in what had been the groom’s quarters above the separate stable block had killed herself by putting her head in the gas oven. The occupant had seen a female figure on the path that led around one side of the main house.
> 
> While the human body is a physical thing, it runs on chemicals and electricity – especially the brain. Since electricity is generally invisible but its effects can be seen and felt, is it possible that ghosts are some form of after-death electricity recreating the shape and colours of the human body? To include non-human objects such as clothing is another matter.


Since that electricity that ceases once the brain dies I don't see how that is possible or how it's possible for electricity to recreate anything, it's not a conscious thing that can choose one form or another. 

This thread has got people chatting away tho so it's all good


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## cogito (Jul 18, 2021)

Having been in about 600ish abandoned buildings at a conservative guess, the only out of the ordinary thing that I've ever come across was a group of ghost hunters that were confused by how we hadn't set off their motion detector at the only entrance.


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## Wrench (Jul 18, 2021)

cogito said:


> Having been in about 600ish abandoned buildings at a conservative guess, the only out of the ordinary thing that I've ever come across was a group of ghost hunters that were confused by how we hadn't set off their motion detector at the only entrance.


I think ghost hunters are just confused in general


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## zeroUE (Jul 18, 2021)

Thing is, we as explorers go to places and some of them really do have a dark past, murders, abuse, early treatment of lunatics... the way I see it if there was any likelihood of actually coming across some poor tortured soul haunting a place then that's the kind of place you'd expect them, yet... nothing .

I don't know what happens to our consciousness after death, I have no beliefs regarding it, but there are some interesting theories regarding the substance DMT but this isn't the place for that discussion, and no it doesn't involve ghosts either


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## Hayman (Jul 19, 2021)

Tbolt said:


> Since that electricity that ceases once the brain dies I don't see how that is possible or how it's possible for electricity to recreate anything, it's not a conscious thing that can choose one form or another.
> 
> This thread has got people chatting away tho so it's all good


As others have said, we know things now we did not know in the past. A capacitor holds its charge after it has been disconnected. Batteries are electro-chemical devices, as is the brain. Countless people over centuries have reported seeing ghosts. Anglesey Guy's wife described without prompting the same figure he had seen. All I am doing is using the knowledge we have now to suggest how ghosts may be formed. How about a type of hologram created by a currently unknown method?


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## Wrench (Jul 19, 2021)

Hayman said:


> As others have said, we know things now we did not know in the past. A capacitor holds its charge after it has been disconnected. Batteries are electro-chemical devices, as is the brain. Countless people over centuries have reported seeing ghosts. Anglesey Guy's wife described without prompting the same figure he had seen. All I am doing is using the knowledge we have now to suggest how ghosts may be formed. How about a type of hologram created by a currently unknown method?


Na it's all mumbo jumbo


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## motionlessmike (Jul 19, 2021)

Interesting thread this!

I am actually a long time closet Most Haunted fan and have had some weird experiences myself over the years, but for me there's no crossover with UE and ghosties. If there's ghosts about wandering about in a derp then they don't bother me and I don't bother them. 

Apart from Taxal Lodge... on top of being a fetid shithole, the place just doesn't feel right when you're in there for some reason!


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## AngleseyGuy (Jul 27, 2021)

Interesting theories!
My first weird experience of these things - and aside from the woman in the attic, the only other one - was when I visited the office of my landlord once, many years ago. The office was in a stately home in Hertfordshire, converted into office suites. As soon as you went in, it felt really empty and 'cold'.
Apparently the previous occupant had trouble with a poltergeist and had the room exorcised. Yeah, I didn't believe in poltergeists either, but presumably as a result of the exorcism, the room had been completely cleared of whatever historical energy had been there.
This is all sounding a bit weird and goofy, but it's difficult to explain. Sometimes you can go into an ancient church, and you can almost feel the centuries of prayers that have been absorbed into the walls. Maybe that's what makes some houses seem really homely? I'd only really noticed the warmth that old buildings have once I encountered one completely devoid of it.
Here's a poser for you...
Why do derelict buildings decay so quickly?
A house identical to ours a few doors away has been empty for about five years. The paint is flaking, inside and out. There is unevenness in the roof tiles and bits of render starting to fall off. Our house has not really received any more maintenance in that time than the neighbouring one has, but it is still perfectly fine. Do houses know they are unloved and give up? lol.


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## Wrench (Jul 27, 2021)

Mainly due to lack of warmth to keep our the damp and maintenance to keep out the weather ....oh and dicks smashing stuff up


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## Norfolkbloke (Jul 27, 2021)

Anyone remember Jimmy Blanch's cottage on the outskirts of Long Stratton?

On my last visit (going back a few years now!) to the cottage I was about to enter one of the out buildings but had an intense feeling of being watched and not being wanted, while standing in a doorway looking at the buildings floor strewn with old vintage car magazines, newspapers, books and letters etc I heard the sound of someone very firmly stamping down a foot just behind me...no sound of nature or other explanation I can think of can replicate the sound of someone stamping down a foot just a few feet away from where I stood!

The cottage was completely levelled and is now fenced off, Jimmy was a recluse and was a very private person and was undoubtedly attached to his cottage and somewhat eccentric way of life..though sad to think of the prospect of a persons essence lingering in these lonely old places.

Matt


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## Teesskin (Jul 28, 2021)

Wither you believe in ghosts or not makes No difference as to this topic and unlike a lot of people we " explorers " enter old buildings and wander around locations a lot more than some paranormal groups do so its just an Interesting thread to hear peoples take on strange experiences but while some want to argue for natural explanations its good to read other people have seen or heard what can only be put down to a gut feeling, as to ghosts and paranormal I'm sure one day we'll all find out what happens at the end.

I have had three strange experiences over the years my first was not really exploring but I was in a old RAF building and a ghost of a man walk past me this was later proven when a friend came to the proper some years later to do a ghost box session. My second experience was exploring a ruined farm outside Darlington a clear voice was heard in between by myself and the guy I was wish and we both left the property. The third experience was while walking around the derelict Lord line building in Hull, I was walking around inside the building during the day when this shadow of a man stood up like he's been caught my friend and I both saw it and we moved aside from the door to let the figure escape, needless to say I've not been back.


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## Wrench (Aug 2, 2021)

Been thinking about all this mumbo jumbo.....sorry ghost stuff.

I have a question for all the believers in this.

I have been in a certain derp in Liverpool, in the dark (cus that's when ghosts appear) for several hours in a small group but nothing "spooky" happened.
In fact I know one chap who's been in the place dozens of times and never seen a ghost.....bear in mind this is "one of the most haunted places in the uk"

But

When people go on ghost hunts here (ya know....on a PAID ghost hunt)
They see and hear somethings "spooky"

My question is this

Is this pure chance or is the fact people pay money and the organiser's want to keep a reputation going directly related to the " SPOOKY" goings on?

Also why no ectoplasm? We've all seen ghostbusters .....why no ectoplasm?

Damn that was two questions


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## Wrench (Aug 2, 2021)

First correct answer gets a big kiss from Porky Pig


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## AngleseyGuy (Aug 3, 2021)

Madness lies in trying to convince a non-believer of something you have had personal proof of, whether it is the appearance of apparitions, God or UFOs.
I've had personal experiences of both a ghost and of God, and that is enough to convince me!
I saw our attic ghost probably four times in total - certainly not often enough to base a tourist experience around her. I therefore assume that ghost tours as you describe are wholly bogus, though they may well have been based on a first hand account of a particular event in the past.
I'm just thankful that there might be no ghosts yet from the social media generation. Can you imagine??? These things are going to be crawling out of the walls all over the place posing for instagram pics or Facebook likes! There will be a whole new anxiety about what you wear, not only to go out, but around the house in private too. You never know when you may die, and then your arse is going to look big perpetually in the grubby outfit you chose to hoover in when you were electrocuted! Ghosts are going to be jumping out all over the place when cameras are around shrieking "Me! Me!". 
Until then, they and their ectoplasm are going to remain unexplained and unexplainable.


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## Wrench (Aug 3, 2021)

Unexplained or just untrue


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## AngleseyGuy (Aug 4, 2021)

Tbolt said:


> Unexplained or just untrue


Yeah, well, as I said in my opening sentence.
I can't prove to you what I've seen, and good luck in proving to me what you've not seen!


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## Hayman (Aug 4, 2021)

For many, the truth is either not enough - or too much. As Scotty said about the engines on the Starship Enterprise: "They canna take it!".


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## Wrench (Aug 4, 2021)

Hayman said:


> For many, the truth is either not enough - or too much. As Scotty said about the engines on the Starship Enterprise: "They canna take it!".


Or they just don't believe something that makes no sense whatsoever and there is not one shred of evidence to say otherwise


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## Wrench (Aug 4, 2021)

AngleseyGuy said:


> Yeah, well, as I said in my opening sentence.
> I can't prove to you what I've seen, and good luck in proving to me what you've not seen!


Well as I said earlier on......the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence.


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## Wrench (Aug 4, 2021)

Being as we've droned on about this for weeks now and everything has been said that needs saying I'm gonna lock this thread and we can get on with doing Derelict places stuff.

There are plenty of paranormal sites out there and that is the platform for this topic .


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## Wrench (Aug 5, 2021)

Ok

I've had a msg or two saying that this thread is enjoyed by regular members and as such I've unlocked the rascal, who said democracy is dead eh?

Please make sure all parties conduct themselves in a gentlemanly manner ....even the lady gentleman of the site (lady gentleman sounded better in my head than it does in the real world) but you get the gist 

All hail the resurrection


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## Hayman (Aug 6, 2021)

Tbolt said:


> Well as I said earlier on......the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence.


If I go into a witness box in a court room, and describe what I saw with my own eyes, or heard with my own ears, is that anecdote or evidence? How it that different from what people are posting here?


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## Wrench (Aug 6, 2021)

Hayman said:


> If I go into a witness box in a court room, and describe what I saw with my own eyes, or heard with my own ears, is that anecdote or evidence? How it that different from what people


So in that case all "sightings" of the monster in Loch Ness are evidence? Or is it somebody seeing something they don't understand or misinterpret and attaching and explanation to it?

Anecdotal evidence does not evidence make


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## rvf400 (Aug 6, 2021)

I've seen some odd things over the years but I still don't believe in the supernatural. I'm sure others would have taken my experiences as proof, but to me it's just another mind trick, visual or auditory stimulation my brain perceives as something strange. 

But maybe I just don't want to believe.


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## night crawler (Aug 6, 2021)

Hayman said:


> If I go into a witness box in a court room, and describe what I saw with my own eyes, or heard with my own ears, is that anecdote or evidence? How it that different from what people are posting here?



Anecdote
NOUN




a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person:
"he told anecdotes about his job"
synonyms:
story · tale · narrative · sketch · urban myth · urban legend · reminiscence
an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay:
"his wife's death has long been the subject of rumour and anecdote"
the depiction of a minor narrative incident in a painting:
"the use of inversions of hierarchy, anecdote, and paradox by Magritte, Dali, and others"


Evidence
NOUN

the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
"the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
synonyms:
proof · confirmation · verification · substantiation · corroboration · affirmation·
[More]
VERB

be or show evidence of:
"the quality of the bracelet, as evidenced by the workmanship, is exceptional"
synonyms:
indicate · show · reveal · be evidence of · display · exhibit · manifest · denote·
[More]


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## night crawler (Aug 6, 2021)

Truth is I cannot believe that people say they have seen in buildings. My poor old dad when he was alive used to tell me about seeing a "Will O The Wisp" in Ireland when he was walking back home. It would make the hair on your head stand seeing it . It does exist but is nothing more than Bog Gas floating around. He dropped dead in kitchen in my first house but I have never heard of any one saying there is a ghost or presence there. I spent many an hour walking around the derelict wards at Fair Mile where a lot of people committed suicide but I have never felt any presence there what so ever. Two doors down from our house one gut who lived there hung himself in the stairwell, I've known the people who lived there over the years and been it the place myself but no one had told me if there is a ghost or presence there. 
It's all a load of tosh IMO people get jumpy when walking in an empty building on their own and if they hear or see something they let their imagination take over. In trough they really need to have a talk to themselves and grow up, they are not kids any more.


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## Hayman (Aug 7, 2021)

night crawler said:


> Truth is I cannot believe that people say they have seen in buildings. My poor old dad when he was alive used to tell me about seeing a "Will O The Wisp" in Ireland when he was walking back home. It would make the hair on your head stand seeing it . It does exist but is nothing more than Bog Gas floating around. He dropped dead in kitchen in my first house but I have never heard of any one saying there is a ghost or presence there. I spent many an hour walking around the derelict wards at Fair Mile where a lot of people committed suicide but I have never felt any presence there what so ever. Two doors down from our house one gut who lived there hung himself in the stairwell, I've known the people who lived there over the years and been it the place myself but no one had told me if there is a ghost or presence there.
> It's all a load of tosh IMO people get jumpy when walking in an empty building on their own and if they hear or see something they let their imagination take over. In trough they really need to have a talk to themselves and grow up, they are not kids any more.


All I can do is to repeat what a current occupant of my main 1950s childhood home asked me out of the blue: "Did we see the ghost when we lived there?"


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## night crawler (Aug 7, 2021)

SO did you see it??


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## Hayman (Aug 8, 2021)

night crawler said:


> SO did you see it??


As I have said previously, no. Nor did I hear of anyone who did. But the wife of a couple living in the flat above the stables did commit suicide by putting her head in the gas oven in the flat's kitchen during the time when we lived in the main house, and rented out the flat. Where I used to walk with my maternal grandfather there was one tree's trunk touching that of another. When a wind was blowing, the trunks moved against each other, making sounds that led to us calling it, "the oogly oogly tree". We both knew there was 'nothing there', just a bit of fantasy. But that young woman did kill herself, and over half a century later I was asked about the ghost.


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## Teesskin (Aug 10, 2021)

Tbolt said:


> Been thinking about all this mumbo jumbo.....sorry ghost stuff.
> 
> I have a question for all the believers in this.
> 
> ...


In my experience paid Ghost hunts are a waste of time and often actors are used to make you fear what you can't see, but if anything like tv programs to go by then they are just for entertainment, its the same said by Christians who say they don't believe in ghosts but they go to church every Sunday to pray to the holy ghost, I guess you will just remain an un-believer in the paranormal or strange and unknown until you have an experience of your own you can't explain.

In order to answer your question - the Film Ghostbusters is that just a film, as for spooky goings on I guess one day you might just find out.


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## Wrench (Aug 10, 2021)

I have had many strange experiences in my life but no matter what I will never attribute owt to ghosts!

Just a film.....you telling me Mr staypuft is make believe? ...give over


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## Teesskin (Aug 22, 2021)

Personally I think by making your comments you have spoilt this thread


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## Hopeyouguessmyname (Aug 29, 2021)

Someone dropped a fridge from an upper floor in Rochdale - on purpose. Not spooky but bloody scary when you can't find your way out and you have a lunatic in the building.


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## jhluxton (Aug 30, 2021)

This is a strange experience which didn’t effect me personally on an explore as a child in the 1960s – but did effect my mother who was me.

Before I even knew what industrial archaeology let along urbex was I had developed an interest in old mine sites due to family holidays in Cornwall and Devon. My mother and father would indulge my interests and often stop off at old mines for me to have a look around.

One day circa 1967 they took me down to Botallack Mine, my father decided to stay in the car and read the paper whilst my mother came with me. After looking at Botallack – I asked to walk over to this other engine house I could see some distance away along the cliff path.

A minute or two after arriving there my mother suddenly called out to me to come away and hurried me up the track back to the car. I was obviously a bit upset for being hauled away before I had had a proper look around. Once back in the car my mother apologised and told me she felt there was something really bad about the place and just had to get away, my father was a bit puzzled too as she had come back to the car so flustered. 

My interest in old mines continued to develop and a few years later in my early teens I bought yet another mining book and found out about the Wheal Owles disaster.

This occurred on January 10, 1893 when miners were working in the undersea level of Wheal Owles 400 feet below adit level.

They accidentally holed into the flooded old workings of Wheal Drea Mine due to errors on existing plans at a depth of some 900 feet (148 fathoms) below the surface. The head pressure on this volume of water must have been enormous and the sea thundered into Wheal Owles trapping over 30 men. Some were rescued but 19 miners and one mine boy were lost and were never recovered.

I had never forgotten the incident several years earlier and showed the book to my mother which she found very interesting. She was never able to account for her urge to flee other than feeling really bad about the place. Over the years we often talked about what happened that day.

Eventually in 1993 a memorial was erected close to the engine house to the miners whose bodies still remain under ground. Around this time the building was also conserved and consolidated. To viewers of the recent drama series of Poldark it will be very familiar and the number of visitors it now receives has increased many times!

Over the years I have revisited the site quite often as it is very photogenic, my now late mother, sitting in the car several hundred yards away in the car park. However, I can’t say I have ever felt anything strange about the place, but my mother did – enough to make her absolutely terrified and she was a very level-headed person. The Wheal Owles engine house can be seen in this fairly recent phot of mine: 

L2015_5105_03 - Cargodna Pumping Engine House - Wheal Owles by John Luxton, on Flickr

Having visited countless other derelict abandoned places over the years I have never felt anything strange, though from what I have read I think some people are more susceptible to experiences than others. I certainly would not dismiss other people’s experiences as what I saw in my mother just plainly wasn’t rational but her reaction to me was just too real and one of those childhood memories one doesn’t easily forget.

John


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## BikinGlynn (Aug 31, 2021)

Iv seen some scary stuff, but normally after Iv done a Urbpoo!


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## TheBackpackExplorer (Aug 31, 2021)

I visited Oaklands Children's home yesterday - I didn't read the history until after I had been. Having explored mostly solo & some creepy places ive never really been ever spooked at all.... bar a few pigeons! I explored 3 floors & a basement - all floors were fine apart from one.. the main floor. Its hard to explain but I felt very very uncomfortable & uneasy. I went up & down the floors a few times - everytime I left that floor the feeling went but each time I came back I felt very unnerved inside & there was a really uneasy feeling inside about that floor - it just felt like something bad had happened there.

I have since seen the only video I have seen taken inside the old home & the guy filming it actually said the same thing in the area I was... maybe just coincidence but without doubt something didn't feel right...


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## kei_fast_n_furio (Jan 24, 2022)

Wrench said:


> Been thinking about all this mumbo jumbo.....sorry ghost stuff.
> 
> I have a question for all the believers in this.
> 
> ...


I actually think this is a fantastic question. Myself, I guess u could say I fit under the term paranormal investigations. BUT if I'm honest, these "hauntings" an things people see are very exaggerated. Now I'm not saying that I can either confirm or debunk the other side. When I go out exploring I love the history, I love being somewhere that was once so full of life an in the hustle and bustle of life. Like an old hospital, or a warehouse. Etc. 
I can say this, as of yet I have not got any evidence that will convince EVERYONE of the afterlife an ghosts. Etc or whatever your belief is. Now I will say I've "experienced" things that don't have a scientific or rational explanations. 
1st 1 I'll say is I was a nurse at a hospital in Liverpool. I was on a night shift in a skin ward so wasn't all that busy, especially of a night. 
So the nurses room was part of a side room of 3 rooms. These was kept for people with MRSA, or the more serious of extensive skin conditions.
There was 3 side wards so for 1 person per room. The corner room and 1st side room was used as the staff room where we had our breaks an lunch etc. 
So 3 staff on duty of a night, if it was quiet we took a 2 hour break where we could go catch some sleep or chill etc. 
On this particular shift, it was my turn for break. So I went in, an used the recliner chair so it went into a sleeping position as such. Then had my portable DVD play. I think it was around 2003 perhaps. So was in the room, chilling watching "Everybody loves Raymond" on my DVD player. 
There was no lights on only the dim or red lights to make it not completely dark so if a patient got up to go the toilet they was a le too.
Now this room had no curtains or blinds it was just a window. Then there was lights from the car park below this was on 1st floor. The moon was out an it was so bright. When I noticed a shadow on the ceiling. It was very faint at 1st, an I spent 10plus minutes trying 2 work out what was making the shadow. 
Man I couldn't at all work it out. It was like a cloud. An it moved as if it was something outside moving in the wind. An the next bit is exactly how it happened. 
It got thicker an darker. So looked more like a puff of smoke. It then moved slowly to the opposite end of the room I was in, it reached the door, moved down the wall till it reached the top of the door and then it went out the gap at the top of the door. 
I am more likely to say there's a reasonable or a scientific explanation for 90% of haunting or supposed ghosts etc.
Now I don't say this was a ghost or something, but I haven't got an actual explanation for what happened. It didn't go cold, it didn't jump am say boo, no ectoplasm unfortunately neither lol.

I've had some other "odd" things happen. Like an old house I bought when I had my 1st born. We needed a place fast as it was our 1st time living together an a baby on the way.
So our 1st Christmas in the house, my little 1 was in bed asleep. My wife was wrapping presents upstairs in our bedroom. I was downstairs cleaning, an I heard my wife come down the stairs, so I quickly hid behind the door so I could jump out a scare her. After a minute or so. I opened the door expecting her to be on to me about to jump out on her an nobody was there. So I went upstairs to see why she come down. An she said to me 1st, oh I heard u come up the stairs a min a go, I was talking to u but u didn't answer me. An asked I I was OK. So my reply was, I heard YOU come down the stairs an was going to jump out on you. She said she hadn't moved from the bed.

There are a few odd things too in that house, but this post will be even longer. So I'll make this last bit quick, lol
A few years later our little 1 was 3 or so. So my wife and I was sat downstairs watching a film. We put him to bed at like 7.30-8pm. So it was around 9pm-ish an we heard him running around upstairs. He was in our bed as he fell asleep watching some cartoons. So I paused the film, an quietly went upstairs to catch him out playing with his toys as he was supposed to be asleep. So I got upstairs went into our room an he was out cold. He definitely didn't wake up and was running around. This happened at random occasions u that house. No specific time of day or night.

I have a few of these experiences in that house. Happy to tell you more if your interested like.

As I said, I have no SOLID evidence of stuff that is as clear to u as this reply is.
There possibly was so.e explanation to all I mentioned. 
I will say that I Don't attend any group ghost hunts an pay stupid amounts of cash to go on 1.
Personally, I'd rather be with 3 or so other people in an abandoned place, an if we heard or seen anything we can account for where everyone is. So it's not someone banging or messing about.

I've been in some very old buildings like hospitals an similar places where many have died over the years. An not felt a thing. No equipment went off an was chilled an this is at stupid o'clock. 
I've been to places that are not abandoned, are not that old, an had a feeling of someone watching etc, just the feeling u get as a person where u know someone is there etc.
I don't believe u have to wait till 3am an all that. The people who organise these group events are making EASY money. 

Happy to answer any questions or something you have. 
But the majority of the time, I like old abandoned buildings that have so much history to them. An seeing things that PEOPLE had and used, like finding crisp packets from 20 years ago. Drinking bottles from the 50s. An 1 of my favourite things was in Liverpool, its the bunkers underneath Littlewoods Pools on edge lane. In the maze of bunkers, there are charcoal portraits on the wall that was drawn by the people there when WW2 was on. 
If you haven't seen them b4, I can upload some pictures of them on here. 

Hope this help some how with your VERY VALID question.
Cheers.


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## kei_fast_n_furio (Jan 24, 2022)

MrsVance said:


> When I was a teenager (about 15/16) the village we lived in had a closed down swimming baths, I don't know how old the building was but I'd guess early 1900s at the latest when it was built. This small group of 3 or 4 of us used to go here ourselves when younger, but at that point it had been shut down for at least 5 years I think. I'm sure it's this place that got me interested in exploring old and abandoned places!
> 
> We would enter the building through a window that had no glass in it to explore all the places we couldn't get to when we were kids visiting the place, it was really interesting to me to see all the old fixtures and architecture. We'd often end up hanging out in the main pool area for a couple of hours as well afterwards with a little fire going in a metal drum that was there for light.
> 
> ...


This is epic mate. I believe you. It's these experiences from rational people, people who don't push there beliefs on you. An I agree, that sometimes the mind plays tricks on you. Light and sound bend in ways that look and sound like something else. BUT it's when an experience like yours that adds to that as of yet is UNEXPLAINED. It could have been a homeless guy up there. It could have been someone messing with you. It could have been a ghost or spirit etc. 
We don't know. 
I've had similar experiences an I have done a reply in this section that I shared of some of my experiences that I don't have an explanation for. They could have been a haunting, or they could have been something that was explainable. 

Thanks for sharing the story man


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## kei_fast_n_furio (Jan 24, 2022)

Hayman said:


> My wife was a Spiritualist. She told me that she had ‘seen’ people who were dead. As I do, she had welcome or unwelcome feelings when entering a building for the first time. When we were house hunting in 1980, she refused to come with me into one place for which we had the keys. It was a dark evening, and, on going in I found all the walls painted red or black; the interior doors had been replaced by saloon-style swing doors, and the owner had built a bunk bed out of rough timber. We did not take it.
> 
> The large, built 1880, country house I lived in as a boy in the 1950s – and my parents ran as a guest house – was converted into flats around the 1990s. When I visited the place some 20 years ago, the occupant of one of the flats asked me if we “saw the ghost” when we lived there. My answer was no, but a young woman who lived with her husband in what had been the groom’s quarters above the separate stable block had killed herself by putting her head in the gas oven. The occupant had seen a female figure on the path that led around one side of the main house.
> 
> While the human body is a physical thing, it runs on chemicals and electricity – especially the brain. Since electricity is generally invisible but its effects can be seen and felt, is it possible that ghosts are some form of after-death electricity recreating the shape and colours of the human body? To include non-human objects such as clothing is another matter.


This is a great story. I agree with your thoughts on electricity an that "ghosts" if that's what they are are just like electricity. 
I'm NOT saying that this is 100% accurate at all.
But I've often wondered about this theory you put forward. 
As the body as u said is chemical an electrical, as this part is fact, energy doesn't die, it transfers. So what if, the soul of a human is that that is the electrical version etc.

Not saying its fact, it's just a possible explanation or theory. 
I enjoyed reading you story


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## night crawler (Jan 24, 2022)

kei_fast_n_furio said:


> I actually think this is a fantastic question. Myself, I guess u could say I fit under the term paranormal investigations. BUT if I'm honest, these "hauntings" an things people see are very exaggerated. Now I'm not saying that I can either confirm or debunk the other side. When I go out exploring I love the history, I love being somewhere that was once so full of life an in the hustle and bustle of life. Like an old hospital, or a warehouse. Etc.


Paranormal, a load of old tosh, anyone who believes in that is kidding themselves


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## Sam Haltin (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm a paranormal investigator and can you explain to me why the word "paranormal" as you described as being "a load of old tosh"? I've seen pictures and videos posted on this forum that have examples of the paranormal.


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## rvf400 (Jan 25, 2022)

Hugh Jorgan said:


> I'm a paranormal investigator and can you explain to me why the word "paranormal" as you described as being "a load of old tosh"? I've seen pictures and videos posted on this forum that have examples of the paranormal.


Please post the links to these paranormal pictures and videos then we can all decide.

I don't expect a reply on this, because paranormal is 'a load of old tosh' and just used to cash in on YT likes.


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## night crawler (Jan 25, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> Please post the links to these paranormal pictures and videos then we can all decide.
> 
> I don't expect a reply on this, because paranormal is 'a load of old tosh' and just used to cash in on YT likes.


What he said. I don't need to explain why it is a load of Tosh you need to prove it is real Pictures and Videos can be fixed to look like that are real and I really do not believe any of it.
​


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## Hayman (Jan 26, 2022)

night crawler said:


> What he said. I don't need to explain why it is a load of Tosh you need to prove it is real Pictures and Videos can be fixed to look like that are real and I really do not believe any of it.
> ​


Reports of the 'paranormal' occur throughout most of human history: "Ghosts appear in the records of history going back nearly five thousand years to ancient Mesopotamia" - Exploring History website. That the reports exist is fact. Why do they exist is there if no truth in any of them? The human brain can generate images and 'memories' that do not exist in reality (false memories, for example) but that does not mean that all paranormal events are false - imagined. Because we do not understand why or how something happens does not mean it does not happen; just think of "thunder is the gods getting angry". 

Unfortunately it is more easy than ever to produce fake photographs, and fake sounds. That does not mean that all photographs and sounds are fakes. 

The air is full of electromagnetic energy - much more so since the invention of how to produce electricty. Since the brain is an electro-chemical 'machine', it can be affected by electrical currents (ECT, nMRI scans, etc) and by what it 'sees' and 'hears'. For example, it is only thanks to persistence of vision that we can make sense of films, videos and TV pictures. 

Paranormal images are either a known unknown or totally imagined. Which?


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## kei_fast_n_furio (Jan 26, 2022)

night crawler said:


> Paranormal, a load of old tosh, anyone who believes in that is kidding themselves


I think a lot of stuff out there is definitely either FAKED or EXAGGERATED. 
I think the key to it all is to keep an open mind. As technology advances things that was once mysterious, is just part of every day life now.
Like the sun rising.
Like recording a live event. Years back that wouldn't have been imagined that you could record something to rematch it. Off subject a little. 
I think there is evidence out there, but in todays digital world, its easy to fake or manipulate. 
It's a personal belief, just like do you believe in a higher power? Either way it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think, if the person who believes in God an goes to church then that's their entitlement. 
It's like there are a lot of explorers that are seasoned and have explored abandoned buildings before 'Urbex" was a thing. Alot of seasoned explorers don't like using video's an only posting pictures. Yet the newer breed of explorers use video's. An then upload them to YouTube so other like minded people watch them, and in turn make revenue from it.
I think the most important thing is to enjoy what ever it is you do, and not waste time on arguing with people who do or don't agree with you.
Or turn things toxic for not agreeing. 

I've enjoyed reading the majority of the feeds on this subject. It's always interesting to listen to other people's views, opinions and to create a discussion rather than a debate. 
Be safe guys


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## kei_fast_n_furio (Jan 26, 2022)

night crawler said:


> Paranormal, a load of old tosh, anyone who believes in that is kidding themselves


I think there are alot of fake real evidence out there today. 
I also know alot of it is used to generate views and likes and create income from the likes.
I definitely think it's an individual choice to believe or disagree, or remain on the fence.
I definitely think though, there are things that I am unable to explain. I've had experiences that I though was a person coming down the stairs, yet nobody was there. 
I posted the experience on a comment on this thread. An I don't say its a ghost. I would say that it's "unexplained" as there was only 3 people in my house at the time. My wife who was upstairs wrapping presents, our little 1 was asleep in our room, then I was downstairs. I hid behind the door as I wanted to jump out to scare her.
So after a minute I opened the door an nobody was there. I went upstairs to see my wife, she said to me oh u was waiting for u to come in the room, I was talking to you but u didn't reply. I said I heard u come down the stairs as I was going to scare you. 
So with things like this, and other things I've mentioned on this thread like when I was a nurse in the hospital. 
I can't say what it was, it was simply strange and unexplained. 
Be safe.


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## night crawler (Jan 26, 2022)

Hayman said:


> . Since the brain is an electro-chemical 'machine', it can be affected by electrical currents (ECT, nMRI scans, etc) and by what it 'sees' and 'hears'.


I have first had experience of that, I sat under a High Field Magnet helping to plot the field for about two hours, I came out feeling sick and had a headache from it, no wonder they warn people who have MRI scans and they are relatively low field magnets in comparison.


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## Hayman (Jan 26, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I have first had experience of that, I sat under a High Field Magnet helping to plot the field for about two hours, I came out feeling sick and had a headache from it, no wonder they warn people who have MRI scans and they are relatively low field magnets in comparison



When I was aged about 8 or 9 I was a weekly boarder at a school in Paignton, Devon, with my home at Staverton, near Totnes. The street lights in the Paignton area were the yellow sodium type; those near Totnes were white (or close to white). Travelling in the family Austin Ten, I would cover my eyes from the yellow lights because they made me feel sick, almost to the point of vomiting. Once we were under the white lights, I would come out from under the car rug. This happened as a matter of course. For some reason - either the colour itself, or the frequency of the light - my brain was affected by the sodium lights. A few years later I was on holiday in Bournemouth, where the street lights were a bluish white - which I found very restful. I had no ill effects from the one nMRI scan I have had; and that was a brain scan.


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## night crawler (Jan 26, 2022)

Hayman said:


> When I was aged about 8 or 9 I was a weekly boarder at a school in Paignton, Devon, with my home at Staverton, near Totnes. The street lights in the Paignton area were the yellow sodium type; those near Totnes were white (or close to white). Travelling in the family Austin Ten, I would cover my eyes from the yellow lights because they made me feel sick, almost to the point of vomiting. Once we were under the white lights, I would come out from under the car rug. This happened as a matter of course. For some reason - either the colour itself, or the frequency of the light - my brain was affected by the sodium lights. A few years later I was on holiday in Bournemouth, where the street lights were a bluish white - which I found very restful. I had no ill effects from the one nMRI scan I have had; and that was a brain scan.


We scanners are usually around 3T/mhz max and you spend around 15 in one, I was sat under was 20T/mhz . I don't think may people do have side effects from the MRI , but they are not something I would want to go in though my son has been in them quite a lot. Can't say I ever had a problem with sodium lights but they do look quite sickly to look at


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## HughieD (Jan 27, 2022)

If you want to see something so much, sometimes you think you have seen it.

That's all.


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## rvf400 (Jan 27, 2022)

HughieD said:


> If you want to see something so much, sometimes you think you have seen it.
> 
> That's all.


That probably sums up this thread. 

If you want to believe, it won't take much to convince you it's true. 

If you don't believe, it's going to take something pretty irrefutable for you to change your mind.


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## Roderick (Jan 31, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I have first had experience of that, I sat under a High Field Magnet helping to plot the field for about two hours, I came out feeling sick and had a headache from it, no wonder they warn people who have MRI scans and they are relatively low field magnets in comparison.


In a previous incarnation in my days in electronics I used to visit Philips in Eindhoven where they developed MRI scanners, mostly working below 5T but the area needed to be screened because the field was enough to bend the radars in use at Eindhoven airport (or at least that's what they told me and I've no reason to doubt it). The interesting thing is about 1 in 10 of the people working there in other parts of the building could tell you when the magnets were activated but couldn't tell you how they knew.


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## Roderick (Feb 1, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> That probably sums up this thread.
> 
> If you want to believe, it won't take much to convince you it's true.
> 
> If you don't believe, it's going to take something pretty irrefutable for you to change your mind.


There is a real danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here (and he might come back and haunt you lol) All throughout history people have experienced things which looked like magic until the science emerged to explain it - why did a load-stone floating on cork in water align it's self N-S, then magnetism was discovered, amber rubbed on a cats fur magically causes small pieces of fluff to jump up and stick to it until we discover static electricity, who would have thought a robin would be able to sense North using a quantum pairing effect in it's eye? 

A couple of weeks ago there was no water in Chapel en le Frith, after emptying the pipes which go over the hill from Dove holes they got an air lock when they tried to refill them and they had lost the plans of where the pipes ran and where the air release valve was. As I cycled over the hill I saw several Severn Trent employees walking over the fields holding dowsing rods, when I stopped to ask a water guy by one of the parked vans what was happening he explained that while they had electronic pipe detectors in their vans, they got much better results and less false returns from the rods so the guys preferred to use them. I've seen too many examples of dowsing working to ever dismiss it mumbo-jumbo. My money is on some, as yet undiscovered, field effect which if not affected by electromagnetic/electrostatics we would be unable to detect with any of our present instruments or perhaps a quantum effect not yet understood being responsible for things like this? 

Another unexplained and interesting effect (which I would be surprised if even Night crawler hasn't experienced) is demonstrated when a girl with a shapely bottom walks up the road ahead and you find your-self looking perhaps a little too hard at it and she immediately pulls her jumper down to cover it up even though she couldn't possibly know you are looking. 

I'm not saying there is no room for skepticism and one in a million human events happen quite often when you have 60 million people in a country but it does no harm to have a little bit of your mind left open just in case.


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## rvf400 (Feb 1, 2022)

Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely.

Wiki below, but google for a wealth of other info regarding it.
*Dowsing* is a type of pseudoscientific divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites,[1] malign 'earth vibrations'[2] and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus. It is also known as *divining* (especially in reference to the interpretation of results),[3] *doodlebugging*[4] (particularly in the United States, in searching for petroleum[5]) or (when searching for water) *water finding*, *water witching* (in the United States) or *water dowsing*.

A Y-shaped twig or rod, or two L-shaped ones—individually called a *dowsing rod*, *divining rod* (Latin: virgula divina or baculus divinatorius), "vining rod", or *witching rod*—are sometimes used during dowsing, although some dowsers use other equipment or no equipment at all.

Dowsing is a pseudoscience and the scientific evidence is that it is no more effective than random chance.[6][7] Dowsers often achieve good results because random chance has a high probability of finding water in favourable terrain.[8] The motion of dowsing rods is now generally attributed to the ideomotor phenomenon,[9][10][11] a psychological response where a subject makes motions unconsciously. Put simply, dowsing rods respond to the user's accidental or involuntary movements.


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## night crawler (Feb 1, 2022)

Roderick said:


> In a previous incarnation in my days in electronics I used to visit Philips in Eindhoven where they developed MRI scanners, mostly working below 5T but the area needed to be screened because the field was enough to bend the radars in use at Eindhoven airport (or at least that's what they told me and I've no reason to doubt it). The interesting thing is about 1 in 10 of the people working there in other parts of the building could tell you when the magnets were activated but couldn't tell you how they knew.


I have been there installing some equipment but they may have been developing an MRI a lot of companies did but most were copying us. The first one was sent to Nottingham University and they did have part of one in the science museum London. they had to build screening into the magnets because of the stray field.
Have a read of this British Engineering Stamps.


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## Hayman (Feb 1, 2022)

HughieD said:


> If you want to see something so much, sometimes you think you have seen it.
> 
> That's all.


And what if you do NOT want to see something, or feel or sense something? I never wanted to feel sick when seeing those yellow sodium street lights, but I did.


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## Hayman (Feb 1, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely.
> 
> Wiki below, but google for a wealth of other info regarding it.
> *Dowsing* is a type of pseudoscientific divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites,[1] malign 'earth vibrations'[2] and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus. It is also known as *divining* (especially in reference to the interpretation of results),[3] *doodlebugging*[4] (particularly in the United States, in searching for petroleum[5]) or (when searching for water) *water finding*, *water witching* (in the United States) or *water dowsing*.
> ...


"Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely." Please define "scientific" and "proof". 

For decades I have used steel rods bent at right angles and held free to turn in my hands to find where water pipes run. I hold a rod in each lightly-clenched fist, the long end pointing horizontally forward, the short end hanging vertically in the space formed by the tips of my fingers pressing into the gap between the base of the thumb and the forefinger and the palm. As I walk forward, the rods swing to align with the direction of the pipe, the right hand rod swings to the left, the left hand rod to the right. This happens whether the pipe is at right angles to the direction in which I am walking, or diagonal to my route. In the first case, both rods swing towards each other through 90 degrees; in the second one swings through, say, 45 degrees, the other through 135 degrees. 

I once tried using the rods to find the foundations of ancient walls at a site where the walls had long been demolished and grassed over, leaving foundation brickwork or stonework in the ground. The rods did not turn.

That utility companies use divining rods – maybe not yew twigs – to find the positions of pipes says something about their efficacy. A separation needs to be made between looking for artificial (usually metal) pipes and for natural underground springs, etc. Is there some connection between yew twigs for divining and the prevalence of yew trees in churchyards?


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## rvf400 (Feb 1, 2022)

Hayman said:


> "Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely." Please define "scientific" and "proof".
> 
> For decades I have used steel rods bent at right angles and held free to turn in my hands to find where water pipes run. I hold a rod in each lightly-clenched fist, the long end pointing horizontally forward, the short end hanging vertically in the space formed by the tips of my fingers pressing into the gap between the base of the thumb and the forefinger and the palm. As I walk forward, the rods swing to align with the direction of the pipe, the right hand rod swings to the left, the left hand rod to the right. This happens whether the pipe is at right angles to the direction in which I am walking, or diagonal to my route. In the first case, both rods swing towards each other through 90 degrees; in the second one swings through, say, 45 degrees, the other through 135 degrees.
> 
> ...


Just look up the dictionary definitions and that's what I mean by "scientific" and "proof."

Anecdotal evidence is not proof.


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## Hayman (Feb 1, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I have been there installing some equipment but they may have been developing an MRI a lot of companies did but most were copying us. The first one was sent to Nottingham University and they did have part of one in the science museum London. they had to build screening into the magnets because of the stray field.
> Have a read of this British Engineering Stamps.


That explains the presence of the earthing rail at the Eurostar servicing depot at North Pole Road, west London. Was the road named after a local pub?


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## Hayman (Feb 1, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> Just look up the dictionary definitions and that's what I mean by "scientific" and "proof."
> 
> Anecdotal evidence is not proof.


"Anecdotal"? I am more than happy to come to your home and show to you what happens. Would you trust your own eyes? Would you try using the rods yourself? "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Or in Wikipedia.


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## Roderick (Feb 2, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely.
> 
> Wiki below, but google for a wealth of other info regarding it.
> *Dowsing* is a type of pseudoscientific divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites,[1] malign 'earth vibrations'[2] and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus. It is also known as *divining* (especially in reference to the interpretation of results),[3] *doodlebugging*[4] (particularly in the United States, in searching for petroleum[5]) or (when searching for water) *water finding*, *water witching* (in the United States) or *water dowsing*.
> ...


There is no reason why you will want to believe what what I'm about to describe and equally there is no reason for me to lie but it would be good if you could reproduce the experiment your self so at least you can speak from first hand experience of it working or not (for you).

In the 1970s I worked in the special projects division of a large steel works (Dunford Hadfields) where the Meadow Hall shopping centre stands today. The works had grown very fast and in the process the routing of water mains had been lost. Water supplied to the site was metered but thousands of gallons were leaking somewhere, the works maintenance crew had dug holes all over the place but without any joy. In desperation a dowser was called in, he went into the maintenance shop, picked up a pair of mild steel gas welding rods, bent them at right-angles about 6" from the end and held them (one in each hand) in a pair of empty biro tubes so they were completely free to swivel. After a couple of hours walking around the site he told them where to dig a hole and sure enough there was the leak. After that there was a short craze of people walking about with rods and Biro tubes, I was skeptical but found when I experimented that it seemed good at finding steel. I got 20 trade magazines and laid them out on the drawing office floor, in one of them I put a sheet of thin shim steel, no thicker than a sheet of paper. I asked everybody in the department to come into the drawing office when called one at a time, the first was given the rods and told to walk around the office treading on all the magazines, remember where they crossed but not say anything, at the end, go back to the door, call for the next person, give them the rods and sit on the window sill. In every case the rods crossed when the holder stood on the mag with the shim steel, we also got a cross in another part of the room not on a magazine where we later established there was water pipe running under the floor. 

When I told this to my then girlfriend's father, who worked for the water board as part of a leak fixing team, he admitted that when he went deaf and could no longer hear the sound of water leaking with a bar on the pipe, afraid of losing his job he would go to the job early in the morning before work, find the leak with divining rods, secretly mark the spot then later pretend to find it by listening from both ends of the pipe.


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## Roderick (Feb 2, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I have been there installing some equipment but they may have been developing an MRI a lot of companies did but most were copying us. The first one was sent to Nottingham University and they did have part of one in the science museum London. they had to build screening into the magnets because of the stray field.
> Have a read of this British Engineering Stamps.


I'm loving your website! 
Philips have been very good at developing all kinds of x-ray machines, scanners + MRI + electron beam machines. See Magnetic Resonance | Philips, they built their first working scanner in 1978 though as you say the technology was developed originally in the UK.


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## Des Head (Feb 4, 2022)

Hayman said:


> When I was aged about 8 or 9 I was a weekly boarder at a school in Paignton, Devon, with my home at Staverton, near Totnes. The street lights in the Paignton area were the yellow sodium type; those near Totnes were white (or close to white). Travelling in the family Austin Ten, I would cover my eyes from the yellow lights because they made me feel sick, almost to the point of vomiting. Once we were under the white lights, I would come out from under the car rug. This happened as a matter of course. For some reason - either the colour itself, or the frequency of the light - my brain was affected by the sodium lights. A few years later I was on holiday in Bournemouth, where the street lights were a bluish white - which I found very restful. I had no ill effects from the one nMRI scan I have had; and that was a brain scan.



Mate, your brain was affected by the sodium lights. Way back when you were a stupid kid you've had a dream, or seen something on TV, or had a weird night time experience or have been told about one by a family member and it's tickled something in the back of your brain. Something about something creepy under sodium lights. So it's stuck in your tiny underdeveloped brain and the next time you see sodium lights you feel sick, you're not even sure why but there it is. Then you subconsciously build it up into a thing and your adult brain tries to rationalise the feeling and next thing you know you've come to the conclusion you're affected by electromagnetic frequencies. Where in reality your brain has been misleading you because of an association you formed decades ago. Deep down, you know that associating sodium light with negativity is purely psychosomatic, you cannot be physically affected by being in proximity to a streetlight. You know this.


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## Des Head (Feb 4, 2022)

Roderick said:


> There is no reason why you will want to believe what what I'm about to describe and equally there is no reason for me to lie but it would be good if you could reproduce the experiment your self so at least you can speak from first hand experience of it working or not (for you).
> 
> In the 1970s I worked in the special projects division of a large steel works (Dunford Hadfields) where the Meadow Hall shopping centre stands today. The works had grown very fast and in the process the routing of water mains had been lost. Water supplied to the site was metered but thousands of gallons were leaking somewhere, the works maintenance crew had dug holes all over the place but without any joy. In desperation a dowser was called in, he went into the maintenance shop, picked up a pair of mild steel gas welding rods, bent them at right-angles about 6" from the end and held them (one in each hand) in a pair of empty biro tubes so they were completely free to swivel. After a couple of hours walking around the site he told them where to dig a hole and sure enough there was the leak. After that there was a short craze of people walking about with rods and Biro tubes, I was skeptical but found when I experimented that it seemed good at finding steel. I got 20 trade magazines and laid them out on the drawing office floor, in one of them I put a sheet of thin shim steel, no thicker than a sheet of paper. I asked everybody in the department to come into the drawing office when called one at a time, the first was given the rods and told to walk around the office treading on all the magazines, remember where they crossed but not say anything, at the end, go back to the door, call for the next person, give them the rods and sit on the window sill. In every case the rods crossed when the holder stood on the mag with the shim steel, we also got a cross in another part of the room not on a magazine where we later established there was water pipe running under the floor.
> 
> When I told this to my then girlfriend's father, who worked for the water board as part of a leak fixing team, he admitted that when he went deaf and could no longer hear the sound of water leaking with a bar on the pipe, afraid of losing his job he would go to the job early in the morning before work, find the leak with divining rods, secretly mark the spot then later pretend to find it by listening from both ends of the pipe.



My good man, dowsing is not a thing. Yes, a gazillion stories have been imprinted on the impressionable mind, but in repeatable tests dowsing has never been proven to be better than random chance. There are myriad tells when searching for a leak, pretending you found it by magic ensures you're the guy they come to when it's time to find the next one.


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## Hayman (Feb 4, 2022)

Des Head said:


> My good man, dowsing is not a thing. Yes, a gazillion stories have been imprinted on the impressionable mind, but in repeatable tests dowsing has never been proven to be better than random chance. There are myriad tells when searching for a leak, pretending you found it by magic ensures you're the guy they come to when it's time to find the next one.


I can reproduce the steel rods crossing in line with an underground iron or steel pipe time and time again. No "random chance", no "pretending", no "magic". I see little difference with this and how a compass needle aligns itself with the magnetic field of the Earth. I do not know about finding leaks that way, but modern electronic leak finders also use some sort of field effect to pinpoint the leak. When a neighbour had a leak under her driveway,its position was found with such an electronic finder.


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## rvf400 (Feb 4, 2022)

Many articles can be found showing there is no 'magical' power of dowsing.

1 such article Is there any scientific evidence for dowsing? but there are many and all come to a similar conclusion on how its 'works'


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 4, 2022)

Hayman said:


> And what if you do NOT want to see something, or feel or sense something? I never wanted to feel sick when seeing those yellow sodium street lights, but I did.


Not enough is known about the way coloured light affects the brain. I have the kind of Dyslexia called Irlen's Syndrome where a coloured overlay - different colours for different people - can immediately cure the effects of the word blindness of Dyslexia. I literally cannot read red writing on black, and have trouble with black on red. The brain is a complex organ, still incompletely understood. I don't drive because flashing lights make me sick and giddy. It's not epilepsy; it's something to do with the thalamus. And a fast indicator light, sun through railings, or emergency vehicles can set it off. I have no doubt there is some bit of badly wired kit inside your brain which caused this. It may even be related to Seasonal Affective Disorder [SAD] where the winter light leads to lethargy and can cause nausea in those of us affected. Winter light tends more to the yellow, so for what it's worth, I make the suggestion. I just go torpid and go to sleep in candle light.


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 4, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> Many articles can be found showing there is no 'magical' power of dowsing.
> 
> 1 such article Is there any scientific evidence for dowsing? but there are many and all come to a similar conclusion on how its 'works'


Dowsing is illogical. I cannot explain how I have managed to find lost cats for people using a map. It shouldn't work; but with 60% success I'm not going to knock it.


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## Hayman (Feb 4, 2022)

Des Head said:


> Mate, your brain was affected by the sodium lights. Way back when you were a stupid kid you've had a dream, or seen something on TV, or had a weird night time experience or have been told about one by a family member and it's tickled something in the back of your brain. Something about something creepy under sodium lights. So it's stuck in your tiny underdeveloped brain and the next time you see sodium lights you feel sick, you're not even sure why but there it is. Then you subconsciously build it up into a thing and your adult brain tries to rationalise the feeling and next thing you know you've come to the conclusion you're affected by electromagnetic frequencies. Where in reality your brain has been misleading you because of an association you formed decades ago. Deep down, you know that associating sodium light with negativity is purely psychosomatic, you cannot be physically affected by being in proximity to a streetlight. You know this.


You appear to be totally unaware of how recessive and dominant colours affect the brain. Much of advertising is based on it, also what colours are used to paint different types of building. The use of red and yellow in advertising is very common; Kodak has used it for well over half a century. Red, yellow and green for traffic lights and railway signals come from how the brain sees these colours. Red - being the colour of blood - has come to symbolise danger, hence to mean STOP. Green - a recessive colour and seen naturally in all manner of quiet settings such as areas of grasses, plants, trees - has come to mean CLEAR or GO, the lack of danger. Yellow - or orange or amber - also a dominant colour, has become used to mean CAUTION. Yellowness in human skin and eyes indicates unwellness, such as jaundice. 
And places such as hospitals tend to have their walls painted in recessive colours, to induce calmness.

As for my feeling sick at seeing the yellow sodium street lights, it was years before I ever saw any television; we had no TV in Devon at the time. You are right that I do not know why the yellow lights made me feel sick, but equally I do not know why the blue-white lights had the reverse effect - making me feel calm. Having been involved in photography for over 60 years, I do know a little about colours, and how different colours affect the human brain differently. 

Everyone's brain is different. Everyone responds to stimuli differently. As for the sick feeling being psychosomatic:, i.e., "pertaining to the apparent effect of mental and emotional factors in contributing to physical disorders. These definitions imply the possibly untenable assumptions enshrined in the long-held view (Cartesian dualism) that the mind and the body are distinct, separable entities". The separation of mind and body is very much a Western philosophy concept. Go East and they are seen as simply two parts of the whole, hence holistic medicine.
psychosomatic​ 
*1.* Pertaining to the relationship between the mind and the body.

*2.*


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## rvf400 (Feb 4, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> Dowsing is illogical. I cannot explain how I have managed to find lost cats for people using a map. It shouldn't work; but with 60% success I'm not going to knock it.





Sarah Waldock said:


> Dowsing is illogical. I cannot explain how I have managed to find lost cats for people using a map. It shouldn't work; but with 60% success I'm not going to knock it.


I can't find any evidence of studies on finding lost cats with dowsing so for now I'll keep open minded about it


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 4, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> I can't find any evidence of studies on finding lost cats with dowsing so for now I'll keep open minded about it


I did it for a friend in Massachussets of all places, the other side of the world, using the google photos - which work better than maps - because she was desperate and I wanted to do something, and I'd read about someone in California who finds missing persons and DBs for the police on a map. and the cat was where my finger tingled. Less happy was another friend's cat I found which was by the pool I indicated but alas had drowned. It's kinda freaky, but if it's a gift I have, it's up to me to use it, right? I've used it since and it seems to be about 6+ out of 10.


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## BobClay (Feb 4, 2022)

If this keeps up I'll have to get in some more popcorn ...


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## Des Head (Feb 5, 2022)

Hayman said:


> You appear to be totally unaware of how recessive and dominant colours affect the brain. Much of advertising is based on it, also what colours are used to paint different types of building. The use of red and yellow in advertising is very common; Kodak has used it for well over half a century. Red, yellow and green for traffic lights and railway signals come from how the brain sees these colours. Red - being the colour of blood - has come to symbolise danger, hence to mean STOP. Green - a recessive colour and seen naturally in all manner of quiet settings such as areas of grasses, plants, trees - has come to mean CLEAR or GO, the lack of danger. Yellow - or orange or amber - also a dominant colour, has become used to mean CAUTION. Yellowness in human skin and eyes indicates unwellness, such as jaundice.
> And places such as hospitals tend to have their walls painted in recessive colours, to induce calmness.
> 
> As for my feeling sick at seeing the yellow sodium street lights, it was years before I ever saw any television; we had no TV in Devon at the time. You are right that I do not know why the yellow lights made me feel sick, but equally I do not know why the blue-white lights had the reverse effect - making me feel calm. Having been involved in photography for over 60 years, I do know a little about colours, and how different colours affect the human brain differently.
> ...



You've pretty much answered your own initial question. Why do yellow lights make you feel sick? Because you've allocated meaning and feelings to colours. The stop light is red because it's the longest wavelength of light the human eye can detect, thus making it visible over a greater distance, not because blood is red. Pulling up at the traffic lights must be an emotional rollercoaster for you, never look in a kaleidoscope.


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 5, 2022)

Des Head said:


> You've pretty much answered your own initial question. Why do yellow lights make you feel sick? Because you've allocated meaning and feelings to colours. The stop light is red because it's the longest wavelength of light the human eye can detect, thus making it visible over a greater distance, not because blood is red. Pulling up at the traffic lights must be an emotional rollercoaster for you, never look in a kaleidoscope.


Oh dear


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## Des Head (Feb 5, 2022)

Hayman said:


> I can reproduce the steel rods crossing in line with an underground iron or steel pipe time and time again. No "random chance", no "pretending", no "magic". I see little difference with this and how a compass needle aligns itself with the magnetic field of the Earth. I do not know about finding leaks that way, but modern electronic leak finders also use some sort of field effect to pinpoint the leak. When a neighbour had a leak under her driveway,its position was found with such an electronic finder.



You can't compare the magnetic field of an entire planet to that of a leaky pipe, much in the same way you can't compare modern leak detection methods to dowsing. Because, just so we're clear, dowsing is not a thing.


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## Des Head (Feb 5, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> Oh dear



Yes, sweetheart?


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## Roderick (Feb 7, 2022)

Des Head said:


> My good man, dowsing is not a thing. Yes, a gazillion stories have been imprinted on the impressionable mind, but in repeatable tests dowsing has never been proven to be better than random chance. There are myriad tells when searching for a leak, pretending you found it by magic ensures you're the guy they come to when it's time to find the next one.


I presented what I thought was a pretty fair scientific experiment which seemed to me to demonstrate that a piece of steel can somehow be detected by most people. You dismissed it with no rational argument and no attempt to replicate or disprove the results. I could say condescendingly "My good man quantum theory is not a thing" because the double slit experiment can't be explained using conventional physics but it wouldn't stop it working or prove it out of existence. Unless you think your eyesight can resolve an extra page in a 1/2 inch thick magazine there were not "a myriad tells" in my drawing office experiment. Interestingly Einstein thought dowsing probably did work, though I expect you consider your knowledge and thinking on the subject is far greater than his or perhaps you have already done many experiments using people like Hayman? If you are so certain of your facts why not take Hayman up on his offer?
Further reading for fun Curious questions: Does water divining actually work? (N.B. Einstein thought it probably did...) - Country Life


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## night crawler (Feb 7, 2022)

I do not dispute dousing, there is something in it though I have never tried it myself. I do know most steels are magnetic, even stainless steel depending on the grade. Low grades are worst. Finding water is one thing, steel I feel a bit of magnetic attraction is going on.


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## Roderick (Feb 8, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I do not dispute dousing, there is something in it though I have never tried it myself. I do know most steels are magnetic, even stainless steel depending on the grade. Low grades are worst. Finding water is one thing, steel I feel a bit of magnetic attraction is going on.


You should have a go, I was very skeptical till I tried it.


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## john1975 (Feb 8, 2022)

Hayman said:


> "Plenty of scientific proof that dowsing is absolute nonsense, enough to disregard it completely." Please define "scientific" and "proof".
> 
> For decades I have used steel rods bent at right angles and held free to turn in my hands to find where water pipes run. I hold a rod in each lightly-clenched fist, the long end pointing horizontally forward, the short end hanging vertically in the space formed by the tips of my fingers pressing into the gap between the base of the thumb and the forefinger and the palm. As I walk forward, the rods swing to align with the direction of the pipe, the right hand rod swings to the left, the left hand rod to the right. This happens whether the pipe is at right angles to the direction in which I am walking, or diagonal to my route. In the first case, both rods swing towards each other through 90 degrees; in the second one swings through, say, 45 degrees, the other through 135 degrees.
> 
> ...


Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case.. They use proper cable tracers, and, in the case of non metallic services "sonde's" that can be inserted in the service. They now have [increasingly] CAT scanners that log activities and scans, so, in the event of things going wrong, the crews concerned can show they did things as best they could for insurance purposes etc. Even so, it can be very difficult to locate and trace services.. Can you imagine saying to a court or insurance company that; "yes, but we used genuine yew divining rods" Deluded is not the word for it..

john..


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 8, 2022)

Roderick said:


> I presented what I thought was a pretty fair scientific experiment which seemed to me to demonstrate that a piece of steel can somehow be detected by most people. You dismissed it with no rational argument and no attempt to replicate or disprove the results. I could say condescendingly "My good man quantum theory is not a thing" because the double slit experiment can't be explained using conventional physics but it wouldn't stop it working or prove it out of existence. Unless you think your eyesight can resolve an extra page in a 1/2 inch thick magazine there were not "a myriad tells" in my drawing office experiment. Interestingly Einstein thought dowsing probably did work, though I expect you consider your knowledge and thinking on the subject is far greater than his or perhaps you have already done many experiments using people like Hayman? If you are so certain of your facts why not take Hayman up on his offer?
> Further reading for fun Curious questions: Does water divining actually work? (N.B. Einstein thought it probably did...) - Country Life


good analogy with quantum physics, and the double slit test, which despite a patient physics master at school I still don't understand. I explain how a computer works by claiming that it is full of millions of Schroedinger's kittens who are either asleep, or awake, and when they get boistrous the machine crashes. It works for me... and equally, there are unexplained things lumped under ESP which have not yet been explained. And some have. For example, something Einstein called 'spooky action at a distance', a quantum effect now known as 'quantum entanglement' where two particles 'joined' by some.... arcane physics process... have the effect that if something happens to one, the same thing happens to the other, however far apart they are AT THE SAME TIME, no time dilation or anything [close as I can get to understanding this is the Protean Charm out of Harry Potter....] and HOW WEIRD IS THAT? and how unlikely does it sound? but it is true, proven, and scientific.


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## Roderick (Feb 8, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> good analogy with quantum physics, and the double slit test, which despite a patient physics master at school I still don't understand. I explain how a computer works by claiming that it is full of millions of Schroedinger's kittens who are either asleep, or awake, and when they get boistrous the machine crashes. It works for me... and equally, there are unexplained things lumped under ESP which have not yet been explained. And some have. For example, something Einstein called 'spooky action at a distance', a quantum effect now known as 'quantum entanglement' where two particles 'joined' by some.... arcane physics process... have the effect that if something happens to one, the same thing happens to the other, however far apart they are AT THE SAME TIME, no time dilation or anything [close as I can get to understanding this is the Protean Charm out of Harry Potter....] and HOW WEIRD IS THAT? and how unlikely does it sound? but it is true, proven, and scientific.


Ha ha, now I've got coffee on my screen.


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## Roderick (Feb 8, 2022)

john1975 said:


> Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case.. They use proper cable tracers, and, in the case of non metallic services "sonde's" that can be inserted in the service. They now have [increasingly] CAT scanners that log activities and scans, so, in the event of things going wrong, the crews concerned can show they did things as best they could for insurance purposes etc. Even so, it can be very difficult to locate and trace services.. Can you imagine saying to a court or insurance company that; "yes, but we used genuine yew divining rods" Deluded is not the word for it..
> 
> john..


"Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case" I've seen it with my own eyes on more than one occasion so does that make me a nut case for believing my own eyes? What an arrogant uninformed thing to say.


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 8, 2022)

Anglian Water deny 'using magic' to find water


Oxford University scientist Sally Le Page contacted all the UK's water companies to find if they used divining rods - Anglian Water said they did




www.cambridge-news.co.uk





I read this as 'well we do, or at least have done, but we don't want to admit it.' As the article was written with the polemic view of debunking, one has to take it into account.


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## night crawler (Feb 8, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> Love it





john1975 said:


> Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case.. They use proper cable tracers, and, in the case of non metallic services "sonde's" that can be inserted in the service. They now have [increasingly] CAT scanners that log activities and scans, so, in the event of things going wrong, the crews concerned can show they did things as best they could for insurance purposes etc. Even so, it can be very difficult to locate and trace services.. Can you imagine saying to a court or insurance company that; "yes, but we used genuine yew divining rods" Deluded is not the word for it..
> 
> john..


I have seen them useing them in the past and even now I have seen the struggling to find water leaks with the modern equipment. The one outside our house took them long enough to sort out


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## StevenFrench (Feb 8, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> good analogy with quantum physics, and the double slit test, which despite a patient physics master at school I still don't understand. I explain how a computer works by claiming that it is full of millions of Schroedinger's kittens who are either asleep, or awake, and when they get boistrous the machine crashes. It works for me... and equally, there are unexplained things lumped under ESP which have not yet been explained. And some have. For example, something Einstein called 'spooky action at a distance', a quantum effect now known as 'quantum entanglement' where two particles 'joined' by some.... arcane physics process... have the effect that if something happens to one, the same thing happens to the other, however far apart they are AT THE SAME TIME, no time dilation or anything [close as I can get to understanding this is the Protean Charm out of Harry Potter....] and HOW WEIRD IS THAT? and how unlikely does it sound? but it is true, proven, and scientific.


But those of us who do have a decent grip on quantum mechanics can explain the double slit experiment & also what entanglement is all about without having to appeal to extra-forces or whatever it is that might explain dowsing. You can't try and justify dowsing b y appealing to something else that you find mysterious!


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## Sarah Waldock (Feb 8, 2022)

StevenFrench said:


> But those of us who do have a decent grip on quantum mechanics can explain the double slit experiment & also what entanglement is all about without having to appeal to extra-forces or whatever it is that might explain dowsing. You can't try and justify dowsing b y appealing to something else that you find mysterious!


You misunderstand. I was not 'justifying dowsing by appealing to something else I find mysterious;' I was pointing out that effects previously not understood can now be explained by science, and therefore that a lack of current explanation does not mean that an explanation does not exist. 
If you are a fine enough scientist to truly understand quantum mechanics, you are surely aware that science advances by postulating theorums, which are often pooh-poohed, and are either rebuffed - like phlogisten - or proven - like quantum entanglement. There are plenty of theories unproven and not universally accepted - dark matter, for example, in astrophysics, where I'm on firmer ground. My personal hypothesis is that the excess gravity is caused by a vast number of primordial black holes which are bloody difficult to detect. And nobody has a clue about dark energy - it exists, but nobody knows what it is or how it works. It is an effect which cannot be explained - yet. Rather like dowsing.


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## night crawler (Feb 8, 2022)

StevenFrench said:


> But those of us who do have a decent grip on quantum mechanics can explain the double slit experiment & also what entanglement is all about without having to appeal to extra-forces or whatever it is that might explain dowsing. You can't try and justify dowsing b y appealing to something else that you find mysterious!


You sound like one of those scientist used to have to work with at Oxford Instruments and latterly Diamond Light Source


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## john1975 (Feb 8, 2022)

Roderick said:


> "Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case" I've seen it with my own eyes on more than one occasion so does that make me a nut case for believing my own eyes? What an arrogant uninformed thing to say.


Let me put it like this.. It is very difficult to trace services with the proper equipment. For a start off, what are you looking for?? For a start off, the equipment does NOT detect metal, it detects one of three things.. 1, Eddy currents given off by a LOADED mains cable [if it is not loaded you might not find it] 2, Radio frequency "interference" if you like, that is given off as the pipe or whatever acts as an aerial, so you can listen to what it has picked up. 3, the signal we inject using a signal generator.

It is STILL very difficult, as, the signal can jump from one service to another, so you might detect electrical signals in a water pipe for example. It is still a difficult job to trace the path of a simple water main, and that is with all the signal generators and detectors AND a LOT of experience interpreting the results.

If someone thinks they can do the same with two welding rods held in a biro job, bullshit.. and NO WAY would ANY utility firm permit this either, as striking a cable is likely to result in death or VERY severe injury. NO utilities do DIVINING and those that said they did were only joking..

Go and try to track the services to your own house, you will get nowhere...

People "say" they have seen ghosts, that does not mean that they have...

john..


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## Hayman (Feb 9, 2022)

john1975 said:


> Anyone that believes that utility companies use "divining rods" is a nut case.. They use proper cable tracers, and, in the case of non metallic services "sonde's" that can be inserted in the service. They now have [increasingly] CAT scanners that log activities and scans, so, in the event of things going wrong, the crews concerned can show they did things as best they could for insurance purposes etc. Even so, it can be very difficult to locate and trace services.. Can you imagine saying to a court or insurance company that; "yes, but we used genuine yew divining rods" Deluded is not the word for it..
> 
> john..


"Can you imagine saying to a court or insurance company that; "yes, but we used genuine yew divining rods"!" Bearingi in mind that all UK courts have Christian Bibles and other religious books for one purpose only - for witnesses and defendants to be able to hold in their hands and say, with slight variations, "I swear by Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" - which is more likely to exist: Almighty God or the divining properties of yew twigs and/or steel rods?


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## Hayman (Feb 9, 2022)

Roderick said:


> Ha ha, now I've got coffee on my screen.


Better on your screen than trickling into the gaps between the keys of your keyboard.


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## StevenFrench (Feb 9, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> You misunderstand. I was not 'justifying dowsing by appealing to something else I find mysterious;' I was pointing out that effects previously not understood can now be explained by science, and therefore that a lack of current explanation does not mean that an explanation does not exist.
> If you are a fine enough scientist to truly understand quantum mechanics, you are surely aware that science advances by postulating theorums, which are often pooh-poohed, and are either rebuffed - like phlogisten - or proven - like quantum entanglement. There are plenty of theories unproven and not universally accepted - dark matter, for example, in astrophysics, where I'm on firmer ground. My personal hypothesis is that the excess gravity is caused by a vast number of primordial black holes which are bloody difficult to detect. And nobody has a clue about dark energy - it exists, but nobody knows what it is or how it works. It is an effect which cannot be explained - yet. Rather like dowsing.


One difference is that the supposed 'evidence' for dowsing has never been reproduced in controlled tests (whereas the two-slit expt is easily performed these days). Another is that there is a plausible alternative explanation for the crossing of the wires, sticks or whatever - unconscious 'ideomotor' movements by the subject. And finally, a further difference when it comes to the comparison with dark matter & dark energy is that the evidence for the latter is complex and difficult to obtain and the hypotheses are difficult to test, for obvious reasons. Dowsing is just not comparable to these other two.


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## Hayman (Feb 9, 2022)

john1975 said:


> Let me put it like this.. It is very difficult to trace services with the proper equipment. For a start off, what are you looking for?? For a start off, the equipment does NOT detect metal, it detects one of three things.. 1, Eddy currents given off by a LOADED mains cable [if it is not loaded you might not find it] 2, Radio frequency "interference" if you like, that is given off as the pipe or whatever acts as an aerial, so you can listen to what it has picked up. 3, the signal we inject using a signal generator.
> 
> It is STILL very difficult, as, the signal can jump from one service to another, so you might detect electrical signals in a water pipe for example. It is still a difficult job to trace the path of a simple water main, and that is with all the signal generators and detectors AND a LOT of experience interpreting the results.
> 
> ...


"Go and try to track the services to your own house, you will get nowhere..." I have just come back in from using my steel rods both in the paved front area of my house and outside, across the 12 foot wide pavement and in the road. The rods crossed time and again. Buried in the pavement are water pipes, gas pipes, electricity cables, cable TV cables and, laid last year, optic fibres. Their close proximity to each other makes it impossible to say which service is making the rods cross, but cross they do.


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## Hayman (Feb 9, 2022)

Steven French wrote of "without having to appeal to extra-forces". What we are discussing here are very much 'intra-forces', terrestrial forces. Just as gravity - likewise invisible - is a terrestrial force.


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## JohnD (Feb 9, 2022)

Don't know about utilities, but my house had subsidence. To inspect, the insurers sent a constructional engineer, who asked where my drains ran. I had no idea, so he asked for a wire coat hanger, which he cut in two and constructed a pair of rods. He found the run of drains in no time, confirmed by access hatches I didn't know about as they were covered by earth. I had a go - I had seen him work and therefore was biased, but I could feel the rods move!


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## BobClay (Feb 9, 2022)

◄----- orders more popcorn from Amazon.


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## rvf400 (Feb 9, 2022)

JohnD said:


> Don't know about utilities, but my house had subsidence. To inspect, the insurers sent a constructional engineer, who asked where my drains ran. I had no idea, so he asked for a wire coat hanger, which he cut in two and constructed a pair of rods. He found the run of drains in no time, confirmed by access hatches I didn't know about as they were covered by earth. I had a go - I had seen him work and therefore was biased, but I could feel the rods move!


The problem with this is that he was looking for something he knew was already there. He could have just took a blind guess and the chances where high of him being correct. Maybe subconsciously he felt the ground was firmer underfoot where the access hatch was?? 1 of many possible outcomes, could have been pure luck, his previous experience of where they are likely to be drew him to that spot.


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## PhilR (Sep 25, 2022)

Naked Explore said:


> It's the living that you need to watch out for


That's exactly what went through my mind when, as a teenager, I decided to walk through Ford cemetery, in Plymouth, one night. Halfway through, in pitch darkness, I started getting anxious over the idea of some nutcase possibly being there. Fear of the dark is a primitive instinct, designed to make you alert in dark places, where there may be some animal that would find you edible.


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## Sarah Waldock (Sep 25, 2022)

PhilR said:


> That's exactly what went through my mind when, as a teenager, I decided to walk through Ford cemetery, in Plymouth, one night. Halfway through, in pitch darkness, I started getting anxious over the idea of some nutcase possibly being there. Fear of the dark is a primitive instinct, designed to make you alert in dark places, where there may be some animal that would find you edible.


Ok, now we need Iron Maiden 'Fear of the Dark' as the theme music...


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## PhilR (Sep 25, 2022)

Wrench said:


> Mainly due to lack of warmth to keep our the damp and maintenance to keep out the weather ....oh and dicks smashing stuff up


Give it a year, and there'll be millions of homes like that.


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## john1975 (Sep 26, 2022)

JohnD said:


> Don't know about utilities, but my house had subsidence. To inspect, the insurers sent a constructional engineer, who asked where my drains ran. I had no idea, so he asked for a wire coat hanger, which he cut in two and constructed a pair of rods. He found the run of drains in no time, confirmed by access hatches I didn't know about as they were covered by earth. I had a go - I had seen him work and therefore was biased, but I could feel the rods move!


They were taking the piss out of you.. Any surveyor or half decent builder will tell you where the drains run, as there are set locations for them set out in the building regs etc


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## Hayman (Sep 26, 2022)

john1975 said:


> They were taking the piss out of you.. Any surveyor or half decent builder will tell you where the drains run, as there are set locations for them set out in the building regs etc


I think "should run" is nearer the truth. Building regulations are relatively new in the time scale of house building. Next door to where I lived in west London, utility workmen were trying to find a pipe using the modern version of dowsing rods - which is what the coat hanger here represented - an electronic detector. They thought they had found the pipe, but it was the wrong one. They dug either side and still did not find the one they were looking for. In fact, it was immediately under the one they had already uncovered - but not on any plans.


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## Hayman (Sep 26, 2022)

rvf400 said:


> The problem with this is that he was looking for something he knew was already there. He could have just took a blind guess and the chances where high of him being correct. Maybe subconsciously he felt the ground was firmer underfoot where the access hatch was?? 1 of many possible outcomes, could have been pure luck, his previous experience of where they are likely to be drew him to that spot.


Yes, the rods did move for you. They will for most if not all people - if they let them. I've done it scores of times to show others it works. Try walking diagonally over a buried drain pipe, and the rods will swing towards each other, and stop in line with the pipe.


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## Hayman (Sep 26, 2022)

PhilR said:


> That's exactly what went through my mind when, as a teenager, I decided to walk through Ford cemetery, in Plymouth, one night. Halfway through, in pitch darkness, I started getting anxious over the idea of some nutcase possibly being there. Fear of the dark is a primitive instinct, designed to make you alert in dark places, where there may be some animal that would find you edible.


That is why, in Lesotho, there is a very ordinary looking hill called Thaba Bosiu - it means Mountain of the Night. It got its name from when it was used as a refuge from attack and it was supposed to grow into a mountain at night time and be impregnable. Also in Lesotho Tsela Tseou is a farewell to travellers, wishing them a good journey. Literally it means White Road, white to mean good since it represents the light of day as opposed to the dark or black of night.


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## john1975 (Sep 27, 2022)

Hayman said:


> I think "should run" is nearer the truth. Building regulations are relatively new in the time scale of house building. Next door to where I lived in west London, utility workmen were trying to find a pipe using the modern version of dowsing rods - which is what the coat hanger here represented - an electronic detector. They thought they had found the pipe, but it was the wrong one. They dug either side and still did not find the one they were looking for. In fact, it was immediately under the one they had already uncovered - but not on any plans.


That is because they did not know what they were doing.. You clearly do not have a clue as to how "modern detectors" as you put it, work..

Go get your dowsing rods and try to plot out the electric cable to your house, and then, separately the drains and the gas and water supplies, see how far you get with that... Have fun..


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## Hayman (Sep 27, 2022)

john1975 said:


> That is because they did not know what they were doing.. You clearly do not have a clue as to how "modern detectors" as you put it, work..
> 
> Go get your dowsing rods and try to plot out the electric cable to your house, and then, separately the drains and the gas and water supplies, see how far you get with that... Have fun..


I was talking about pipes and not electricity cables. Their detector picked up the metal from the upper pipe which was masking the presence of the lower one. At the time the pipes that teed off from the mains running the length of the road were black iron or lead. 

Where I now live - Bournemouth - a firm was installing optic fibre in my road, using an electronic detector to locate pipes and cables buried in the pavement. One of the workmen hit a live electricity cable with his pneumatic drill. He said he thought the cable should have been deeper than it was.

Incidentally, how do electronic stud detectors work when they are picking up woodwork, and neither metal pipes nor electricity cables?


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## Anarresti (Oct 5, 2022)

Teesskin said:


> I'm just going to throw this one out as a random post but has anyone had any strange or spooky experience's while out exploring these old derelict locations, I know from my own wanders around properties the feeling of not being alone or being watched it always there, and while sometimes we do come across drug users and homeless or kids id like to hear accounts from members if you have had anything happen.


To start off, I don't do LSD or other drugs (maybe, sometimes, alcohol, but rarely) when exploring and I often have my best friend, my dog, with me.

There's a lot of supposedly haunted places in Auld Reekie, where I'm from but I have been in the Edinburgh Vaults and, as mentioned before, Mary King's Close and other 'haunted' places but the only time I got a very eerie vibe was at the old Bonnyrigg library/council house. That might have been due to the late hours and the vast amount of boxed offices, cupboards and shadows... some bits definitely felt off while most were normal/ok. The back where the maps are/were (it was over 7 yrs back) was very peaceful and warm feeling, kind of occupied, although it was not, but the second floor to the left of the entrance was very, very unsettling, although the room was completely empty.

I felt very strange in the Greyfriars though... even my old and now dead doggo, who's was usually a happy big boy, was hackles up and anxious when we came near the place where bloody McKenzie kept his lads out in the cold like they were enemies, to die of exposure... lots of suffering there. Maybe it's just the historical fact that played my mind and my dog, as they do, picked it up as well... I definitely want to go again after nearly 10 years and see how I feel being 10 years older


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## Hayman (Oct 6, 2022)

Anarresti said:


> To start off, I don't do LSD or other drugs (maybe, sometimes, alcohol, but rarely) when exploring and I often have my best friend, my dog, with me.
> 
> There's a lot of supposedly haunted places in Auld Reekie, where I'm from but I have been in the Edinburgh Vaults and, as mentioned before, Mary King's Close and other 'haunted' places but the only time I got a very eerie vibe was at the old Bonnyrigg library/council house. That might have been due to the late hours and the vast amount of boxed offices, cupboards and shadows... some bits definitely felt off while most were normal/ok. The back where the maps are/were (it was over 7 yrs back) was very peaceful and warm feeling, kind of occupied, although it was not, but the second floor to the left of the entrance was very, very unsettling, although the room was completely empty.
> 
> I felt very strange in the Greyfriars though... even my old and now dead doggo, who's was usually a happy big boy, was hackles up and anxious when we came near the place where bloody McKenzie kept his lads out in the cold like they were enemies, to die of exposure... lots of suffering there. Maybe it's just the historical fact that played my mind and my dog, as they do, picked it up as well... I definitely want to go again after nearly 10 years and see how I feel being 10 years older


I recall, when house-hunting in west London, my wife refused to go into a place the estate agent gave us the key to. She had a 'bad feeling' about it. Inside, the walls were painted red or black, the conventional doors had been replaced with Western saloon swing doors, and a crude bunk bed in rough timber had been built in the bedroom. We did not take it!

When I visited the Wharncliffe Viaduct - one of Brunel's great railway bridges - I was unaware it was one of his structures. Had I been - as I was on seeing the Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash, and the Clifton Suspension Bridge - would I have given myself the sort of feelings I thought I should have had? 

Did you pass on to your dog - through your pheromones - some type of anxiety when at Greyfriars? 

It is often said a horse rider transmits his or her confidence - or lack of it - to the mount.


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## PhilR (Oct 8, 2022)

Anarresti said:


> To start off, I don't do LSD or other drugs (maybe, sometimes, alcohol, but rarely) when exploring and I often have my best friend, my dog, with me.
> 
> There's a lot of supposedly haunted places in Auld Reekie, where I'm from but I have been in the Edinburgh Vaults and, as mentioned before, Mary King's Close and other 'haunted' places but the only time I got a very eerie vibe was at the old Bonnyrigg library/council house. That might have been due to the late hours and the vast amount of boxed offices, cupboards and shadows... some bits definitely felt off while most were normal/ok. The back where the maps are/were (it was over 7 yrs back) was very peaceful and warm feeling, kind of occupied, although it was not, but the second floor to the left of the entrance was very, very unsettling, although the room was completely empty.
> 
> I felt very strange in the Greyfriars though... even my old and now dead doggo, who's was usually a happy big boy, was hackles up and anxious when we came near the place where bloody McKenzie kept his lads out in the cold like they were enemies, to die of exposure... lots of suffering there. Maybe it's just the historical fact that played my mind and my dog, as they do, picked it up as well... I definitely want to go again after nearly 10 years and see how I feel being 10 years older


A couple of years after moving into my first home, I was awoken in the middle of the night by a feeling that I was being watched. I searched the house top to bottom, but I didn't find a thing. The feeling wasn't due to a nightmare, nor did it ever happen again, but it was only the second time in my life that I have had such a feeling of fear.


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## night crawler (Oct 8, 2022)

PhilR said:


> A couple of years after moving into my first home, I was awoken in the middle of the night by a feeling that I was being watched. I searched the house top to bottom, but I didn't find a thing. The feeling wasn't due to a nightmare, nor did it ever happen again, but it was only the second time in my life that I have had such a feeling of fear.


I put that down to imagination, face this was your first home and the place was unkown to you


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## Hayman (Oct 9, 2022)

night crawler said:


> I put that down to imagination, face this was your first home and the place was unkown to you


Or whatever was doing the 'watching' accepted the new occupant as a 'friend'. After all, dogs and cats treat humans - and other four legged animals - as 'friends' or 'foes'.


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## PhilR (Oct 9, 2022)

As I had said, I had been in the house for a couple of years at least, so it wasn't a strange house to me. I've moved many times with the MOD, and never experienced this in any other house. Besides, I don't believe in ghosts. In scientific terms, if you replicate the same conditions, and can't repeat the same result, then you can discount novelty and imagination as the cause. I have visited a hangman's scaffold (c/w noose)in an old ropery, in Devonport Naval Base, several times, which was reputed to be haunted, and worked late into the night for weeks in Central Office Block 3, where there was a temporary morgue in WWII, and not felt strange. Nor have I imagined anything, many things can be due to sound transference, or thermal shock, so I look for logical explanations, not fantasy. This last building scared a few MOD policemen, but I never found anything to cause anyone any concern. 


night crawler said:


> I put that down to imagination, face this was your first home and the place was unkown to you


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## Hayman (Oct 10, 2022)

PhilR said:


> As I had said, I had been in the house for a couple of years at least, so it wasn't a strange house to me. I've moved many times with the MOD, and never experienced this in any other house. Besides, I don't believe in ghosts. In scientific terms, if you replicate the same conditions, and can't repeat the same result, then you can discount novelty and imagination as the cause. I have visited a hangman's scaffold (c/w noose)in an old ropery, in Devonport Naval Base, several times, which was reputed to be haunted, and worked late into the night for weeks in Central Office Block 3, where there was a temporary morgue in WWII, and not felt strange. Nor have I imagined anything, many things can be due to sound transference, or thermal shock, so I look for logical explanations, not fantasy. This last building scared a few MOD policemen, but I never found anything to cause anyone any concern.


I find it one of life's 'unknown unknowns' as to whether ghosts, etc are real or are all products of the human mind. It has often been reported that animals - dogs, mainly - have shown fear for no logical reason when in certain places. Are they reacting to the people with them, or to something else?


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## Anarresti (Oct 10, 2022)

PhilR said:


> That's exactly what went through my mind when, as a teenager, I decided to walk through Ford cemetery, in Plymouth, one night. Halfway through, in pitch darkness, I started getting anxious over the idea of some nutcase possibly being there. Fear of the dark is a primitive instinct, designed to make you alert in dark places, where there may be some animal that would find you edible.


I think even animals are harmless compared to what humans can do. We're the apex predators atm. But you're right, we have this instinct for a reason. Adrenaline hightens your senses as well


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