# Turner Brothers Asbestos & Textiles - Rochdale - November 2012



## The Lone Ranger (Nov 7, 2012)

*Turner Brothers Asbestos & Textiles - Rochdale*
*Inc. TBA Ballistics/TBA Electro-Conductive/Telford Rubber*​






TBA was one of Greater Manchester's oldest firms and was forced to leave its hometown after more than 100 years. TBA Textiles Ltd has been based at the Turner and Newall factory in Rochdale since 1875. But the developer which owns the site has told the firm to leave by May 2012. The Rochdale site was the birthplace of the modern asbestos textile industry and headquarters of the T&N worldwide empire until 1948.

The site of the old Turner Brothers asbestos textile factory at Spotland upon which plans for developing a housing estate of 650 houses is currently being considered.. 

Turner Brothers Asbestos (TBA) were pioneers of asbestos material fabrication, and developed spinning and weaving processes. Production commenced in the early 1870’s, and it ended in the Spodden Valley in the mid 1990’s.

The world’s first asbestosis victim was Rochdale TBA worker Nellie Kershaw in 1924. The first mesothelioma cancer victim recognised by T&N was Spotland worker and resident William Pennington in 1936. The link between lung cancer and asbestos exposure was confirmed by a study of Rochdale TBA workers in 1956. 






Researchers have uncovered documents that prove the asbestos and insurance industries knew about the dangers of the deadly fibre for many decades. Factory Inspectors in 1898 warned about the working conditions of asbestos workers. It has been suggested that the story of the asbestos industry is one where known facts about health and safety were suppressed for the sake of profit.






TBA Electro Conductive Products Ltd is a specialist manufacturer of high quality electro static protection (ESP) and electro magnetic interference (EMI) shielding products. The product range is primarily intended at supplying both materials and finished products for electrostatic protection and EMI RFI shielding within a broad range of industries. Their product range largely falls into four family groups: static control, EMI/RFI gaskets and seals, conductive polymers, and conductive coatings and metallising.

TBA Ballistics manufactured protective clothing for the emergency services and armed forces.

Telford Rubber has been providing a specialist service to industry of granulating and powdering virgin rubbers and elastomers for inclusion in compounds for applications as diverse as brake linings to gaskets for over 25 years.

*Report*​
After playing about in a local culvert; Ojay mentioned a huge site nearby which may be possible, off we shot and were soon wandering around the huge complex. 






Our first attempt to get in found us very close to the territorial call of a lesser spotted pikey going about his business, so after a quick retreat we found another way in. First thing to greet us was this recently burnt out car.






Onwards and upwards we passed this lift motor room on our way up to the roof.






Sat on the roof the full scale of the site hit home, I couldn’t do it any justice even with my wide angle lens! It was all adding up to be a good explore. Back in the main building we soon found flooded floors from where the pikeys have stripped out the water pipes.











Back down on the lower floors we past through vast workshops with the odd bit of equipment left in them.






These scales proved who ate all the pies!






We then found the offices of TBA Ballistics, you could spend ages in here looking through all the leaflets, drawers and cupboards.






The guy in this office was a bit of a photographer, not sure if the image was taken on this site, but not a bad capture.






TBA Ballistics also made flame retards, was lucky enough to capture one here.






Back to wandering around the offices and factory floors.
















Some rooms still have plenty of interest to see, the place hasn’t been fully stripped as yet.
















At this point we had obviously gone full circle as the gentle tap tap of the lesser spotted pikey started up again from through the hole in the wall.






We retraced our steps and visited some of the outbuilding before heading off for a well earned kronie or 2.

All in all a quality Sunday afternoon stroll around a huge site.

Hope you enjoyed

TLR


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## UEP-Wales (Nov 7, 2012)

Very nice report and pics! I enjoyed this one very much so cheers for sharing


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## Silent Hill (Nov 7, 2012)

I think you need to go back judging by the size of the complex! And I can see many peeps following in your tracks ( albeit without wellies ) 

Quality mooch


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## Lucky Pants (Nov 7, 2012)

Wow great report and pictures , be in the area soon and this is defo one i want to see ,thanks .


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## The Lone Ranger (Nov 7, 2012)

Cheers all, a grand day was had 



Lucky Pants said:


> Wow great report and pictures , be in the area soon and this is defo one i want to see ,thanks .



Just watch out for the pikeys, they are very active on the site!



Spiral Architect said:


> I think you need to go back judging by the size of the complex! And I can see many peeps following in your tracks ( albeit without wellies )
> 
> Quality mooch



We were dressed for culverts, but the wellies came in useful for the areas where the water pipes had been cut. We saw a fair bit of the site, but it would be good to head back, hopefully without the in-situ pikey.


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## flyboys90 (Nov 7, 2012)

Great report & photos,really interesting thanks for sharing.


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## UE-OMJ (Nov 7, 2012)

Interesting report, cheers


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## perjury saint (Nov 7, 2012)

*Crackin report there fella! Really like the look of this place...*


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## silver surfer (Nov 7, 2012)

great report and fantastic photo`s ,well done


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## UrbanX (Nov 7, 2012)

Wow! What a wander! Love that, fave has to be the shot near the top with the reflection. Of the window


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## The Lone Ranger (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks all  

May have to have another look as it is such a huge site!


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## NOT WORTH THE BOTHER (Oct 4, 2022)

I work security on this site and it it's dangerous as fuck, every day we hear something else collapse, the whole thing is just a mass of rotting wood and rusting steel, cast iron pipes dangling by bolts that can sheer at any moment, floors that can no longer support the weight of people, holes in the ground that drop in to pits of rusted metal and dirty water....oh did i mention the whole site is contaminated with one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man? Asbestos is EVERYWHERE, the walls, roofs, fence posts and the dust covering everything is asbestos. And there is CCTV all over the site now, just stay out it's not worth the risk honestly there are loads of urban explorers been in there now, all the pics are online there really isn't anything else to see that hasn't already been snapped by somebody else, and i don't want to be the one who comes across your body impaled on and old rusty drainpipe


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## Hayman (Oct 4, 2022)

NOT WORTH THE BOTHER said:


> I work security on this site and it it's dangerous as fuck, every day we hear something else collapse, the whole thing is just a mass of rotting wood and rusting steel, cast iron pipes dangling by bolts that can sheer at any moment, floors that can no longer support the weight of people, holes in the ground that drop in to pits of rusted metal and dirty water....oh did i mention the whole site is contaminated with one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man? Asbestos is EVERYWHERE, the walls, roofs, fence posts and the dust covering everything is asbestos. And there is CCTV all over the site now, just stay out it's not worth the risk honestly there are loads of urban explorers been in there now, all the pics are online there really isn't anything else to see that hasn't already been snapped by somebody else, and i don't want to be the one who comes across your body impaled on and old rusty drainpipe


It is reassuring to have a comment 'from the other side'. All exploring - whether an old factory or mountain climbing - needs to be done with common sense at the forefront of any visit anywhere.


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## Hayman (Oct 4, 2022)

"It has been suggested that the story of the asbestos industry is one where known facts about health and safety were suppressed for the sake of profit." This is probably true, just as in the tobacco industries - where the carcinogenic nature of cigarette smoking was suppressed, along with the risk of having other breathing ailments. But since there was a very real need for the insulating and fireproof properties of asbestos fabrics, what alternatives were available at the time? Nowadays fibreglass and plastics of many types have taken over the roles once performed by asbestos. And today all manner of plastics are condemned. Handling fibreglass loft insulation is not hazard free. Total freedom from risk appears to be wishful thinking. And all risks are relative.


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## wolfism (Oct 5, 2022)

NOT WORTH THE BOTHER said:


> I work security on this site and it it's dangerous as fuck, every day we hear something else collapse, the whole thing is just a mass of rotting wood and rusting steel, cast iron pipes dangling by bolts that can sheer at any moment, floors that can no longer support the weight of people, holes in the ground that drop in to pits of rusted metal and dirty water....oh did i mention the whole site is contaminated with one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man? Asbestos is EVERYWHERE, the walls, roofs, fence posts and the dust covering everything is asbestos. And there is CCTV all over the site now, just stay out it's not worth the risk honestly there are loads of urban explorers been in there now, all the pics are online there really isn't anything else to see that hasn't already been snapped by somebody else, and i don't want to be the one who comes across your body impaled on and old rusty drainpipe



These are all good points, but fact is you've revived a ten year old thread and thus attracted attention to somewhere that many folks had forgotten about.


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## Hayman (Oct 6, 2022)

wolfism said:


> These are all good points, but fact is you've revived a ten year old thread and thus attracted attention to somewhere that many folks had forgotten about.


Almost all religions are thousands of years old, yet billions of people want to attract attention to them. Besides, who is to say what should not be mentioned on this website? Are we not all adults? I know the dangers when I cross the road, so I look left and right before so doing. Everest was first climbed in 1953 and 310 people have died in their attempts, 11 in 2019. Should it be never climbed again, and all attempts banned? 'Caveat Explorer' is my motto.


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## wolfism (Oct 6, 2022)

I agree with you, we all need to take responsibility for our own actions rather than relying on someone else to think on our behalf. My point is that the security guard from Turners Asbestos has probably made his own job more difficult, so he might have been better to let sleeping dogs lie - since TLR visited around ten years ago and this thread has lain dormant since.


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## Hayman (Oct 7, 2022)

wolfism said:


> I agree with you, we all need to take responsibility for our own actions rather than relying on someone else to think on our behalf. My point is that the security guard from Turners Asbestos has probably made his own job more difficult, so he might have been better to let sleeping dogs lie - since TLR visited around ten years ago and this thread has lain dormant since.


Thanks for your reply. That member Not Worth The Bother has joined us - and has ended with "I don't want to be the one who comes across your body impaled on and old rusty drainpipe" after a long explanation of what the site looks like today - suggests concern for anyone trying now to explore it. While there have been no posts since 2012, this does not mean others have not read the 2012 post and, from that, have visited the site. I certainly do not report here much of my illicit exploration. Since Not Worth The Bother is writing from a professional viewpoint - and that final sentence - I would think twice about a visit. There are, of course, those who want bigger and bigger challenges to be met, and conquered. The security guard here has warned them off entering the site. I wonder what explorations this guard has made, and hopes to make. Perhaps 'silence is golden'.


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## PhilR (Oct 8, 2022)

I wonder what PPE the security guard wears, to protect him from this hazardous site, and why the HSExhasnt taken action against the owners. As it stands, that asbestos dust is being carried invisibly on the breeze, putting people at risk, security guards included.


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## PhilR (Oct 8, 2022)

PhilR said:


> I wonder what PPE the security guard wears, to protect him from this hazardous site, and why the HSExhasnt taken action against the owners. As it stands, that asbestos dust is being carried invisibly on the breeze, putting people at risk, security guards included.


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## wolfism (Oct 9, 2022)

From what I've read, at least some of the asbestos is waste located in dumps excavated and buried around the site.


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## Hayman (Oct 9, 2022)

PhilR said:


> I wonder what PPE the security guard wears, to protect him from this hazardous site, and why the HSExhasnt taken action against the owners. As it stands, that asbestos dust is being carried invisibly on the breeze, putting people at risk, security guards included.


Perhaps the asbestos is not a risk if it is not disturbed. Is it brown, blue or white? Maybe the guard wears a disposable paper suit that has a hood to cover the head and hair, and uses a face mask. That was the normal clothing for people removing asbestos when I was in the central heating industry, where buildings needed to be cleared of it.


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## PhilR (Oct 9, 2022)

Asbestos isn't harmful, if left undisturbed, especially if sealed in by paint. But a site that is in a partially collapsed state, and still falling apart, will be exposing the asbestos, and there's every chance that there will be asbestos in it. It does not matter whether it is amosite crocidolite or chrysotile, they're the three main forms, all with varying degrees of harmfulness. If working with asbestos, it's not only important to wear the right PPE and RPE, 
it’s important to wear PPE in the following order: 

Disposable coveralls. These should include a hood and elasticised cuffs. Choose the next size up to reduce the risk of tearing. 

Shoes. Don’t wear shoes with laces as they are hard to decontaminate. Gumboots are safer as they can be wiped down. 

Disposable shoe covers. These should be secure and cover the entire shoe. The soles must be non-slip. 

Disposable gloves. Tuck gloves under the elasticised cuffs. If the cuffs are loose, tape them down to create a seal. 

Face mask. Don’t use a standard dust mask. Always use a P2 rated particulate face mask. It should fit well and cover half your face. You must be clean shaven for the mask to seal properly. 

Protective eyewear. Wear safety glasses to protect your eyes from dust. 

If you didn't follow this, you were at risk of exposure to asbestos. 
Anyone investigating a derelict building pre-2000, may have been exposed to asbestos. The HSE won't be drawn onbhow many asbestos fibres constitute a hazard, but the more fibres you arecexposed to, the greater the risk. Everyone must decide for themselves what constitutes an acceptable risk.


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## Cuban B. (Oct 9, 2022)

This is a good Flickr page for those with an interest in asbestos. It is quite eye opening to see how many different materials once contained the mineral: Asbestorama


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## Hayman (Oct 10, 2022)

PhilR said:


> Asbestos isn't harmful, if left undisturbed, especially if sealed in by paint. But a site that is in a partially collapsed state, and still falling apart, will be exposing the asbestos, and there's every chance that there will be asbestos in it. It does not matter whether it is amosite crocidolite or chrysotile, they're the three main forms, all with varying degrees of harmfulness. If working with asbestos, it's not only important to wear the right PPE and RPE,
> it’s important to wear PPE in the following order:
> 
> Disposable coveralls. These should include a hood and elasticised cuffs. Choose the next size up to reduce the risk of tearing.
> ...





PhilR said:


> My nearest 'dice with death' regarding asbestos was when I visited a mine in Swaziland, And that was on the surface. Once the ore was brought up, it was crushed and treated with water in large tanks. This resulted in the tops being covered in slime - very risky if walking across them. I did ask to go underground - to see the men at work there - but was not allowed to. This was around 1970, when most people were unaware of the dangers related to asbestos. Now, I just wonder what the life expectancy was of those Swazis working in the mine. As for PPE........


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## SARAH79 (Oct 11, 2022)

It was known that asbestos was harmful from at least the 1920s.

Yet it was not banned (all sorts) in the UK until 2000.

Pretty much every p-ublic building built before 1990 has asbestos in it but hospitals and schools are especially affected.


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## PhilR (Oct 14, 2022)

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that the Pliny the Younger knew that asbestos was dangerous, as the slaves mining it had a short lifespan. 
As an aside, Amosite is a form of asbestos and it's a partial acronym of a trade name which ensued as a partial acronym for “Asbestos Mines of South Africa”, since this type of asbestos occurs primarily in that geographical region.


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## PhilR (Oct 14, 2022)

SARAH79 said:


> It was known that asbestos was harmful from at least the 1920s.
> 
> Yet it was not banned (all sorts) in the UK until 2000.
> 
> Pretty much every p-ublic building built before 1990 has asbestos in it but hospitals and schools are especially affected.


The hazardous nature of asbestos mining was known by Pliny the Younger. As a rule of thumb, any building pre 2000 should be assumed to have asbestos containing materials. Artex and floor tiles were often acms.


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## Hayman (Oct 15, 2022)

PhilR said:


> The hazardous nature of asbestos mining was known by Pliny the Younger. As a rule of thumb, any building pre 2000 should be assumed to have asbestos containing materials. Artex and floor tiles were often acms.


What would the Romans have used asbestos for? Did they treat it as another form of clay - to be moulded into different shapes? Or for its non-combustibility - in connection with ovens and metal working?


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 16, 2022)

Hayman said:


> What would the Romans have used asbestos for? Did they treat it as another form of clay - to be moulded into different shapes? Or for its non-combustibility - in connection with ovens and metal working?


they used it in fabrics, things like towels to use in the kitchen, which according to Strabo they threw in the fire to clean and they came out white. Also for cremation robes and the wicks of ceremonial candles and some wearing apparel. I remember having asbestos oven gloves in my youth, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Romans did likewise.


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## Hayman (Oct 17, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> they used it in fabrics, things like towels to use in the kitchen, which according to Strabo they threw in the fire to clean and they came out white. Also for cremation robes and the wicks of ceremonial candles and some wearing apparel. I remember having asbestos oven gloves in my youth, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Romans did likewise.


Thanks, Sarah. The idea of asbestos for cremation robes made sense, and as wicks for candles - everlasting flames? Now you mention it, I recall asbestos oven gloves. In the physics lab at school, we placed an asbestos disc over the Bunsen burner flame and then put objects to be heated on the disc. I like the idea of throwing towels onto a fire to clean them. I must try it with my asbestos underpants! Regarding the mention of workers in the asbestos mines not having long lives - presumably compared to the average at the time - I wonder how long miners in other mines - tin, silver, etc - lasted. I'm thinking of the cold damp conditions in most mines, plus pneumoconiosis from any dust particles.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 17, 2022)

Hayman said:


> Thanks, Sarah. The idea of asbestos for cremation robes made sense, and as wicks for candles - everlasting flames? Now you mention it, I recall asbestos oven gloves. In the physics lab at school, we placed an asbestos disc over the Bunsen burner flame and then put objects to be heated on the disc. I like the idea of throwing towels onto a fire to clean them. I must try it with my asbestos underpants! Regarding the mention of workers in the asbestos mines not having long lives - presumably compared to the average at the time - I wonder how long miners in other mines - tin, silver, etc - lasted. I'm thinking of the cold damp conditions in most mines, plus pneumoconiosis from any dust particles.


Salt mines certainly killed people pretty quickly, and I believe the tin and silver mines the Romans had in Cornwall were not for the long-lived, though that may have been partly to the overdoses of uranium, as the rocks there are stiff with it - it being one of the minerals often associated with tin and silver. Mining has always been a pretty miserable occupation. So, with Romans and Silver mines, did anyone else read 'Treasure' in the early 70s with the tale of Mona and Beric, so beautifully illustrated by Jesus Fernandez?


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## Hayman (Oct 18, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> Salt mines certainly killed people pretty quickly, and I believe the tin and silver mines the Romans had in Cornwall were not for the long-lived, though that may have been partly to the overdoses of uranium, as the rocks there are stiff with it - it being one of the minerals often associated with tin and silver. Mining has always been a pretty miserable occupation. So, with Romans and Silver mines, did anyone else read 'Treasure' in the early 70s with the tale of Mona and Beric, so beautifully illustrated by Jesus Fernandez?


My Cornish friend who was a miner at Geevor until it ceased to be a productive mine is now into his sixties at least, and still healthy. He went on to work at Morrison's in Penzance. Perhaps the biggest danger from any uranium that might have been present alongside the tin ore was the radon gas it can give off. With much of Cornwall (Devon also) being underlain by granite, there has been great talk about the radon gas it can produce. Fans to circulate fresh air through the spaces beneath houses, etc have been suggested. What was specially unhealthy about salt mines? Apart from the general nature of mining in days gone by. Today's only UK salt mines - in Cheshire - are now fully mechanised, with high wide tunnels for the diggers and dump trucks.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 18, 2022)

Makes sense, Hayman. The main danger with the salt mines was that it sucked the moisture out and damaged the lungs and left the poor bloody slaves permanently dehydrated. It was a punishment like being condemned to the galleys. Oh, and the sores which didn't heal


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## Hayman (Oct 20, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> Makes sense, Hayman. The main danger with the salt mines was that it sucked the moisture out and damaged the lungs and left the poor bloody slaves permanently dehydrated. It was a punishment like being condemned to the galleys. Oh, and the sores which didn't heal


Thanks, Sarah, for that info. I wonder if they took fresh water with them to compensate for the effects of such dehydration. When I was in the army in Aden, we were issued with salt tablets to compensate for the effects of the very hot sun, but seldom took them. It was up to us to drink sufficient fluids to make up for any dehydration. Workers at a chromium plating works in Devon in the 1950s had milk bought for them by the firm to counter the effects of the fumes from the plating baths. Whether that had a scientific basis or not I do not know.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 20, 2022)

I suspect slaves were not given so much luxury as life-saving water. I can't see any scientific basis in milk as a chelating agent, but milk does increase the amount of mucus produced so maybe it protected the mucus membranes somewhat?


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## Hayman (Oct 21, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> I suspect slaves were not given so much luxury as life-saving water. I can't see any scientific basis in milk as a chelating agent, but milk does increase the amount of mucus produced so maybe it protected the mucus membranes somewhat?


Without the slaves, who would have done the mining? Just as pit ponies needed to be kept in good condition to do their jobs, so with the slaves. If the milk increased the amount of mucus, maybe the mucus absorbed some of the fumes and diverted them into the digestive system if the mucus was swallowed. If the mucus was hawked up and spat out, the absorbed fumes were got rid of that way.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 21, 2022)

there were always more slaves - they came from the incessant warfare or as tribute, or from criminals. Pit ponies were probably more valued, and they were cared for to the bare minium, in many cases. 
It seems possible, I guess. and milk mitigated internal ulcers if not the external ones. Probably there were better solutions .


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## Hayman (Oct 22, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> there were always more slaves - they came from the incessant warfare or as tribute, or from criminals. Pit ponies were probably more valued, and they were cared for to the bare minium, in many cases.
> It seems possible, I guess. and milk mitigated internal ulcers if not the external ones. Probably there were better solutions .


True there were always more slaves to be obtained, but a slave already experienced in mining might have had more value than one who had never even been underground.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 22, 2022)

hmm the impression I've always had, which might not be true, is that they didn't always live long enough to be experienced as such.


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## PhilR (Oct 27, 2022)

Hayman said:


> "It has been suggested that the story of the asbestos industry is one where known facts about health and safety were suppressed for the sake of profit." This is probably true, just as in the tobacco industries - where the carcinogenic nature of cigarette smoking was suppressed, along with the risk of having other breathing ailments. But since there was a very real need for the insulating and fireproof properties of asbestos fabrics, what alternatives were available at the time? Nowadays fibreglass and plastics of many types have taken over the roles once performed by asbestos. And today all manner of plastics are condemned. Handling fibreglass loft insulation is not hazard free. Total freedom from risk appears to be wishful thinking. And all risks are relative.


To think, and itching powder, that joke shops sold, was fibreglass. The needle like structure of it could see it being regarded in the same way as asbestos, and in the future.


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 27, 2022)

PhilR said:


> To think, and itching powder, that joke shops sold, was fibreglass. The needle like structure of it could see it being regarded in the same way as asbestos, and in the future.


we never used commercial itching powder when we could make something as good for free by extracting the seeds from rose hips and taking off the fluffy outside which works just fine.


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## Hayman (Oct 28, 2022)

PhilR said:


> To think, and itching powder, that joke shops sold, was fibreglass. The needle like structure of it could see it being regarded in the same way as asbestos, and in the future.


Where can I find a reference to fibreglass being used as itching powder? The only thing I found online was about rose hips and mucuna pruriens - including this: "Itching powder was created from _Mucuna pruriens_ in the early 19th century as a cure for lost feeling in the epidermis. When a person would lose feeling on their skin in conditions such as paralysis, the powder (mixed with lard to form an ointment) was used as a local stimulant believed to treat the condition". 

However, I can personally testify to loft insulation in the form of rolls of fibreglass being a very real cause for itchiness. One of the agency fill-in jobs that I had was working in a stinking hot warehouse near Heathrow Airport, stacking artic trailer-loads of loft insulation fibreglass. The lorries would come from south Wales, with the maximum-length-and-height trailers stuffed to their roofs with the rolls contained in thin (sometimes torn) plastic wrapping. It was mid-summer, and the warehouse was just a great single-skin metal shed. Standing on scaffolding planks, we would stack the rolls to the roof of the shed, as if placing bales to make a haystack. And hay can be pretty itchy too. The sweat would run off us, and - yes - we would scratch our bare arms and legs (I was wearing shorts) from the itchiness the air-borne fibres produced. I was very relieved to be able to get home at the end of a day, and have a good shower to get rid of any fibres still clinging to my body. No one talked of using fibreglass to make itching powder. This was in the days when wearing 
face masks was just not heard of. I've no idea what volume of the fibres we inhaled, but we worked a full eight hour day, unloading more than one trailer a day. 

The job lasted only a few weeks, because I found long-term employment elsewhere. Maybe I was lucky. I now use an asthma inhaler - but I am 81 years old.


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## PhilR (Oct 29, 2022)

Sarah Waldock said:


> we never used commercial itching powder when we could make something as good for free by extracting the seeds from rose hips and taking off the fluffy outside which works just fine.


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## PhilR (Oct 29, 2022)

What kind of fiendish mind thought up using the innocent rosehip for such a foul purpose?


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## Sarah Waldock (Oct 29, 2022)

PhilR said:


> What kind of fiendish mind thought up using the innocent rosehip for such a foul purpose?


Well, I and my fellows were given the information by a schoolteacher in a rare unbending to tell of his childhood misdeeds, but I suspect it was discovered by a rose thief - new species started to be found from the end of the 15th century, and if someone concealed seeds in his shirt in case his belt pouch was searched....


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