# WW2 tanks pulled from the sea



## thekatt (Jan 13, 2010)

Hi, a few pics of WW2 tanks, and other bits, rescued from the sea, by a French man. We were heading to Utah beach, and the American cemetery on our way back home, from a stay in France. On the road side we saw this little museum, the owner has spent years pulling old WW2 bit,s from the sea around the D,Day landings, and has preserved them, I believe this place has been seen on television, but cant pin it down, anyway here are the pics, Enjoy









































Hi I will try to find the address of this place


Andy


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## night crawler (Jan 13, 2010)

Superb great set of photo's


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## the_historian (Jan 13, 2010)

A Sherman and an M3 Stuart in the same place...........'tis heaven! 
Great pics btw.


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## Cake! (Jan 13, 2010)

Wow!

Poignant to think these are real battle relics. 

Good stuff


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## sqwasher (Jan 13, 2010)

That's ace! Good on that farmer! Good photies also.


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## Lightbuoy (Jan 13, 2010)

Amazing stuff. Thanks for stopping off especially to take some photos for us!


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## sallybear (Jan 13, 2010)

Fantastic, great pics


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## outkast (Jan 13, 2010)

Great pics thanks for posting, I have seen a program on tv about some of the Duplex tanks that were lost on d-day, apparently the landing craft could not get as close to the shore as was hoped, they attempted to get the tanks to the beach in a heavy swell and some of them were lost along with there crew.


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## cptpies (Jan 13, 2010)

Excellent pictures Andy.

Outkast, I seem to remember that the D-Day planners had neglected to allow for the lateral current along the beaches. This was why so many units landed well away from their planned beach sectors and also why so many DD tanks floundered. They had been tested in worse swell conditions and worked well but the current pushed them broadside to the swell and they shipped more water than the pumps could handle.


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## Labb (Jan 13, 2010)

Superb pictures. This must have been a great find.


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## peanuts (Jan 13, 2010)

Cake! said:


> Wow!
> 
> Poignant to think these are real battle relics.
> 
> Good stuff



and war graves and should perhaps be left where they are ! 
Undisturbed !


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## mexico75 (Jan 13, 2010)

peanuts said:


> and war graves and should perhaps be left where they are !
> Undisturbed !



I remember seeing somewhere there had been uproar amongst Veterans when him and others started doing it, as Tanks were going on display that as far as anybody knew still had the crews remains sealed inside. They explained that many of these 'relics' have never had their rusted shut hatches opened to make sure. When you think about it like that its like digging up someones coffin and sticking it on a stand As far as I know its now illegal to drag things like that up from the sea round there.


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## outkast (Jan 13, 2010)

cptpies said:


> Excellent pictures Andy.
> 
> Outkast, I seem to remember that the D-Day planners had neglected to allow for the lateral current along the beaches. This was why so many units landed well away from their planned beach sectors and also why so many DD tanks floundered. They had been tested in worse swell conditions and worked well but the current pushed them broadside to the swell and they shipped more water than the pumps could handle.



Thanks for clarifying, I knew it was something along those lines, it was a long time ago i saw the program.
Dave


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## biffa bacon (Jan 13, 2010)

Excellent pics!!!


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## blakey79 (Jan 14, 2010)

Wow, truely brilliant


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## Foxylady (Jan 14, 2010)

Amazing stuff, although I feel a bit iffy about the crew remains still being inside...not sure where I'd stand about that. Tis a great little museum though. Nice find.


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## cptpies (Jan 14, 2010)

peanuts said:


> and war graves and should perhaps be left where they are !
> Undisturbed !



I can't verify this but I seem to recall that most of the DD crews didn't go down with the tanks as they were topside and only the driver was in the tank with his hatch open. I think they all had Mae Wests too. The Stuarts and Dozer Shermans were never DD equipped and would have been landed from an LCT or LST. So these were either sunk with their carrying vessels or flooded in deep water whilst driving on to the beach. In either case the crews are likely to have got out of the vehicle. What happened to them then is anyone's guess.


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## hnmisty (Jan 25, 2010)

Can't help but think of the poor sods stuck inside there, as has been said they were launched too far out in panic in bad weather. Tanks weren't built for easy access or exit, not many crews managed to make it out when they were badly hit so I imagine it must have been the same in a stormy sea. Even if they managed to get out, their chances of survival can't have been high.

Very interesting pics but agree that the tanks at least should have been left down there.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jan 25, 2010)

mexico75 said:


> I remember seeing somewhere there had been uproar amongst Veterans when him and others started doing it, as Tanks were going on display that as far as anybody knew still had the crews remains sealed inside. They explained that many of these 'relics' have never had their rusted shut hatches opened to make sure. When you think about it like that its like digging up someones coffin and sticking it on a stand As far as I know its now illegal to drag things like that up from the sea round there.



Whilst surviving Veterans and the General Public probably put this perspective on the situation, I can assure you that many families with loved ones Missing In Action felt/feel completely differently. Both my wife and myself have would be uncles that went missing with Bomber Command - in my in-laws case twin brothers, the youngest of the children. All the missing were pilots, and I often wonder, when I read the stark reality on the pages of their log books, just how they coped on those terror struck nights. Even more heart breaking is the fact that the eldest twin went missing on his and his crews 30 operation on the night of 23rd Aug 1944. A letter from the Squadron CO stating that the crew 'refused to do a 'milk run' for their last mission' somehow makes their loss even more poignant.

Our respective grand parents, who all lived well into their 90s, went to their graves longing that some amateur wreck recovery club/museum would somehow find the downed planes and recover some mortal remains and dog tags, so that their sons could have had a proper burial alongside other fallen comrades. I can still see my Grandmother quietly weeping as she looked out over some vast Dutch polder one cold autumn evening - being around twelve at the time I did not realise the significance, but many years later and much research indicates that my late uncle's plane probably ditched in the area following severe flak damage. She used to get quite excited when they started to drain and recover the polders, and although other planes were found, she was always disappointed.


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## thekatt (Jan 25, 2010)

The main use of DD tanks occurred on D-Day. They were also used in Operation Dragoon, the Allied invasion of southern France, on 15 August, 1944, Operation Plunder, the British crossing of the Rhine on 23 March 1945 and in several operations on the Italian Front in 1945. DD Tanks were sent to India and the 25th Dragoons were trained in their use, but planned operations against the Japanese in Malaya never occurred.

D-Day

The DD Sherman was used to equip ten tank battalions of British, Canadian and American forces for the D-Day landings. They were carried in Tank landing craft (LCT)s. These could normally carry nine Sherman tanks, but could fit fewer of the bulkier DD's. British and Canadian LCTs carried five tanks, the Americans carried four DD's as their LCT's were shorter at about 120 feet (37 m).
The DD's would be launched around two miles offshore, they would swim to the beaches and overpower German defenses unprepared for attack tanks. In the event, the tank's record was a mixture of success and failure, although they are mainly remembered for their disastrous failure on Omaha Beach.

Sword Beach

On the British Sword Beach, at the eastern end of the invasion area, the DD tanks worked well, as the sea was reasonably calm. The DD tanks were launched 2.5 miles (4,023 m) from shore. Five could not be launched as an LCT's leading tank tore its screen - they were later landed directly on shore - and one tank sank after being struck by an LCT.

Gold Beach

On Gold Beach, the sea was rougher. The tanks of the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry were launched late, 700 yards (640 m) from the shore. Eight tanks were lost on the way in and by the time the remainder landed, Sherman Crab mine flail tanks had already destroyed the German artillery and machine-gun positions that would have been their objective. The sea conditions meant the tanks of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards were landed in the shallows. They then drove onto the beach with their screens up so they wouldn't get swamped in the breakers. German anti-tank guns caused heavy losses in some sectors of the beach but the assault was successful.

Juno Beach

On the Canadian Juno Beach, The Fort Garry Horse and the 1st Hussars were equipped with DD tanks, but only those of the 1st Hussars could be launched. They were assigned to the 7th Canadian Brigade, on the western end of the beach. Some of the tanks were launched at 4,000 yards (3,658 m) and some at 800 yards (700 m); twenty-one out of twenty-nine tanks reached the beach. The 8th Canadian Brigade, on the eastern end of the beach, was forced to land without DD tanks because of rougher seas. They suffered heavy initial casualties, but were still able to make good progress.

Utah Beach

DD tanks on Utah beach
On Utah Beach, the DD's were operated by the 70th Tank Battalion. Four of the DD tanks were lost when their LCT was lost to German artillery fire. The remaining tanks were launched 15 minutes late at a point 1,000 yards (914 m) from the beach. Twenty-seven out of twenty eight reached the beach but confusion caused by the massive smoke screen meant they landed around 2,000 yards (1,829 m) from their aiming point and saw little German opposition.

Omaha Beach

At Omaha Beach almost all of the tanks launched offshore were lost, contributing to the high casualty rate and slow progress at that beach.
There were 112 tanks assigned to the first wave at Omaha Beach, with 56 tanks in each of the 741st and 743rd Tank Battalions. Each of these battalions had 32 DD Shermans and 24 other Shermans (including many Sherman bulldozers for clearing obstacles). Starting at about 0540, the 741st Tank Battalion put 29 DD Shermans into the sea, but 27 of these sank and only two made the long swim to the beach. Some of the crews of the sinking tanks managed to radio back and warn following units not to launch as far out. The remaining tanks of the 741st Tank Battalion and all tanks of the 743rd Tank Battalion (except for 4 tanks aboard one LCT that was hit by artillery fire just off the beach) were landed directly on the beach, starting at about 0640.

The DD Tanks were designed to withstand waves up to 1 foot (0.3 m) high; however, on that day the waves were up to 6 feet (2 m) high. These were much worse conditions than the tanks had been tested in and thus they were swamped with water. Also, the tanks of 741st Tank Battalion were released into the sea too far out, about 3 miles (4,828 m) offshore. Considering the inherent difficulty in steering a 35 ton modified tank, it is a tribute to the crews that they got as far as they did. The crews were equipped with emergency breathing apparatus capable of lasting 5 minutes, and the tanks were also equipped with inflatable rafts. Some sources claim that these life-saving measures were ineffective, contradicted by the testimony of survivors. Most of the crews were rescued, mainly by the landing craft of the 16th RCT (Regimental Combat Team) although five crewmen are known to have died during the sinkings.
Until very recently it was believed that most of the DD Shermans of 741st Tank Battalion were sunk immediately, swamped by the seas that were much higher than the operators had practiced with. Some stayed afloat for a matter of minutes; according to the crews one tank swam for 15 minutes before sinking, another "We weren’t in the ocean 10 minutes when we had a problem" Tanks at the other four beaches suffered no such problems. New research suggests that the Omaha tanks were aiming for a church steeple on the visible horizon behind the cliffs. In order to maintain their line of sight it is believed that the tanks had to turn progressively away from the shore to combat the wavefronts pushing them down the beach, putting their sides virtually parallel with the waves/beach. This meant that the protective canvas flotation devices were easily swamped by the waves. If they had kept going directly forward with the front of the tank headed straight for the beach, they may have reached it.
Others believe that the error was on the part of the commanders aboard the ships from which the tanks were launched. They simply gave the order to launch too early, possibly to avoid getting too close to the battle themselves.

Operation Dragoon

The Operation Dragoon landings took place on 15 August 1944. The invasion took place between Toulon and Cannes.
A total of 36 DD-tanks were used by three American tank battalions - the 191st, the 753rd and the 756th. The 756th battalion had eight tanks that were launched 2,500 yards (2,286 m) from the beaches; one was swamped by the bow-wave of a landing craft and one sank after striking an underwater obstacle. The twelve tanks of the 191st battalion were all landed on or close to the beach. The 753rd battalion had 16 tanks, of which eight were launched at sea and successfully reached the shore and eight were landed directly on the beach later in the day,

North West Europe


Sherman DD tanks crossing the Rhine, 24 March 1945
The Staffordshire Yeomanry were converted to DD tanks after D-Day and trained with them in Belgium. On the 26th of October 1944, they undertook a 7-mile (11 km) swim across the Western Scheldt to attack South Beveland, during the Battle of the Scheldt. The DD Tanks' longest operational water crossing took place without casualties, but the tanks had great difficulty in landing - 14 became bogged down in mud and only four were available for action.
Operation Plunder, the crossed the Rhine, began on the night of the 23rd of March, 1945. As well as the Staffordshire Yeomanry, DD tanks equipped the American 736th and 738th Tank Battalions and the British 44th Royal Tank Regiment. Some tanks were lost in the river, but the crossings were considered a success. The tanks were launched from points upstream from their objectives, to take account of the Rhine's strong current, and mats at the objective points (carried across beforehand by LVTs) allowed the DDs to climb the steep, muddy banks of the river.
The DD's last combat, swimming operation was the Staffordshire Yeomanry's crossing of the River Elbe at Artlenburg on the 29th of April 1945.

Italian Campaign

By February 1945, the 7th Queen's Own Hussars in Italy had been trained an equipped with DD tanks, both DD Shermans and DD Valentines. DD Shermans were successfully used in the crossing of the Po River on the 24th of April. On the 28th of April, those tanks still able to swim were used in an assault across the River Adige. During this operation, Valentine DDs were used to transport fuel (their only know use on active service). The tanks continued to be used in combat in the advance towards Venice. There were no further swimming operations, but it was found that the folded flotation screen offered a large seating area, that made the tanks useful troop transports.

The alternative: deep wading gear



Deep wading gear on a Sherman in Normandy, 1944.
Although Duplex Drive allowed the landing craft to release the tank farther from shore, the alternative deep wading gear allowed a tank to drive partially or wholly underwater on the sea floor rather than swim. Deep wading Churchills took part in the 1942 Dieppe raid and deep wading tanks operated on D-Day also. Allied tanks were given waterproofed hulls and air intake and exhaust trunking to allow them to come ashore from shallow water. Tall ducts extended from the engine deck to above the turret top and these needed to stay above water. The front duct was the air intake for the engine and the rear duct vented the exhaust. This device saw use in many amphibious invasions, and was used on light tanks and tank destroyers as well. The US had similar devices for trucks and jeeps.


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## bullmastiff (Jan 27, 2010)

very interesting read that thekatt thanks 

personnaly i think the farmer has done a service to the memory of the allied forces and the lost, 
it may not be to everyones taste but people go and see mummies in museums and to me that is more 
of a desicration.


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## Locksley (Jan 27, 2010)

wow, that's awesome, loving the Sherman


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jan 28, 2010)

thekatt said:


> ' New research suggests that the Omaha tanks were aiming for a church steeple on the visible horizon behind the cliffs. In order to maintain their line of sight it is believed that the tanks had to turn progressively away from the shore to combat the wavefronts pushing them down the beach, putting their sides virtually parallel with the waves/beach. This meant that the protective canvas flotation devices were easily swamped by the waves. If they had kept going directly forward with the front of the tank headed straight for the beach, they may have reached it.
> Others believe that the error was on the part of the commanders aboard the ships from which the tanks were launched. They simply gave the order to launch too early, possibly to avoid getting too close to the battle themselves.'
> 
> The original source of the information gives no proof that the above statements are in fact true. The second paragraph's last sentence is certainly contentious and not reported in battle diaries etc.


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## night crawler (Jan 28, 2010)

thekatt said:


> Regarding the tanks which were heading towards the church steeple there was a TV program about it a few years ago. They even found the tanks all faceing the church direction all in a line along the sea bottom. In that they say one crew drowned the rest saved.


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## phill.d (Jan 28, 2010)

Here's some great pics, and video of a German tank been pulled out of an Estonian lake 56 years after been submerged.
The tank turned out to be a Russian T34 *trophy tank* captured by the Germans. 

Heavy battles were fought in the Narva front in the north eastern part of Estonia in 1944. The tank was captured from the Russians and used by the German army. (This is the reason that there are German markings painted on the tank’s exterior.) On 19 September 1944, German troops began an organised retreat, the tank was then purposefully driven into the lake when the Germans fled.

In September 2000 the 27-tonne tank was pulled from it's boggy tomb, It was in Mint condition considering the time it had been under water.

Viewing highly recommended!
Enjoy!
http://englishrussia.com/?p=299


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## night crawler (Jan 28, 2010)

Did you see the wheels and tracks still worked after all that time


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## smiffy (Jan 28, 2010)

This museum is on the D6 road heading towards Bayeax just outside of Port-en-Bessin .........
Just to clear a few points about disturbing war graves.......
......More or less all of the wrecks on display were dredged / winched up from the sea bed as part of the massive clearing operations done on the whole landing beaches in the years following the end of the war and up until the early 1970s..this was part and parcel of contracts issued by the French Governements of the time to make the beaches safe and to clear them for public use once again.................
This fella ( I can't recall his name but it may be Jacque Lemoncheaux ?) was operating a large scrap recovery business in the area and was allocated certian ares to clear as part of these contracts.......99% of what was cleared was subsequently scrapped at the huge steel mills that used to be south of Caen...not just be this guy but also by the dozens of other fellas involved in the clearance work...
.....it was off his own initiative that he decided to save a few examples of each machine recovered for posterity and possible use one day in a museum of some sorts..........as far as the government were concerned they wanted as much as possible of the 'scap' cleared and they weren't really bothered about preserving anything..... either from the historical point of view or as ' war graves' .........stringent measures _were _put in place to recover any human remains of which they were some........or explosive ordnance of which there was an awful lot ............many years later the Mayor of one of the villages along the coast asked this same fella to recover another DD tank that was known to be in the sea in front of their village...(sorry memory has slipped.... can't recall which village)................he successfully recovered this tank (in approx 1982?) and it is now set up on the sea front as a lasting memorial dedicated to the men that lost their lives.....

*final note:* This same man made a very detailed and accurate map of all the under sea wreckage he found and it was because of him that it was conclusively proven some of the US DD tanks were indeed launched way too far off the coast to have a hope of getting to the beach......in direct contradiction of the general instructions issued to the officers in charge of the landing ships......
........one DD tank was in fact found just over 4 miles from the coast...post war there was some small consideration of charges to be perhaps pressed in some cases of 'negligence' by some of these landing craft crews ....however......... it was quietly decided that no blame should be apportioned to what was put down in the history books as a tragedy of war.............. Hope this helps.


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## thekatt (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi, nice post, thanks, one of the other considerations about the final positions of the drowned tanks, is the tidal flow. On Slapton sands in Devon stands a Sherman tank, Slapton sands was used by the Americans, for practice for the DDay invasion, as the beach was a match for those to be invaded. The account from Slapton can be read, and also the stupidity of the American commanders there, and the loss of life.. After a great storm, in the late 70,s, a man was walking the beach and came across the Sherman tank washed up on the beach, this was then hauled up the beach and now rests as a memorial to the soldiers, the villagers who had to give up their homes, and of course DDay. With tidal flow, and currents, after a while the tanks will have been moved about by the sea, until they offered least resistance to the currents, they would then have become partially embedded in the sea bed in the line of least resistance, this is a possible explanation for the final positions the tanks were found in.



Andy


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## smiffy (Jan 28, 2010)

thekatt said:


> ...... one of the other considerations about the final positions of the drowned tanks, is the tidal flow.............On Slapton sands in Devon............. After a great storm, in the late 70,s, a man was walking the beach and came across the Sherman tank washed up on the beach, this was then hauled up the beach and now rests as a memorial to the soldiers................tidal flow................ this is a possible explanation for the final positions the tanks were found in.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy



yeah hear your point Andy ... a few points though.......
.......It was quite clearly orderd in the general instructions issued to the tank landing craft something like..... 'the DD tanks should be launched as closely as possible...... ideally under 1000 yards...and particular attention _must _be paid to the level of swell on the day .......'
.....even given a bit of tidal movement over the years maybe .... (and I dunno if I agree a 34 ton Sherman could be moved _that_ far once it had settled on the sea bed???) ..
..its hard to justify one being found over 4 miles off the beach.....
........unless of course it had somehow 'fallen' there off a passing tank landing craft that was on its way to the beach.... although no such incident was ever recorded??...and no wreck that it may have sank with was anywhere near it................

and regards Slapton Sands .......
........the Sherman there was not 'found on the beach'..........it _was_ hauled up the beach however only as the conclusion of a very long and protracted mission to lift it off the seabed much further off the beach where it was in apporx 150 feet of water......... ..the method they used was to 'float' it off the seabed and then to pull it towards the beach using the same flotation devices to keep it bouyant........ to a point where it was almost out of the water .._then _it was hauled up the beach.....you may have seen photos of just this part of the operation and been misinformed perhaps?...
.No offence intended mate.....I'm not getting 'niggly' with you......some of the newspapers articles over the years regarding this particular 'recovery' leave a lot to be desired for accuracy...... you can be forgiven for getting it a bit wrong....... cheers Bob


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## thekatt (Jan 28, 2010)

smiffy said:


> yeah hear your point Andy ... a few points though.......
> .......It was quite clearly orderd in the general instructions issued to the tank landing craft something like..... 'the DD tanks should be launched as closely as possible...... ideally under 1000 yards...and particular attention _must _be paid to the level of swell on the day .......'
> .....even given a bit of tidal movement over the years maybe .... (and I dunno if I agree a 34 ton Sherman could be moved _that_ far once it had settled on the sea bed???) ..
> ..its hard to justify one being found over 4 miles off the beach.....
> ...




hi, I stand corrected, the tank was rescued not washed up.



andy


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## cptpies (Jan 28, 2010)

smiffy said:


> ..its hard to justify one being found over 4 miles off the beach.....
> ........unless of course it had somehow 'fallen' there off a passing tank landing craft that was on its way to the beach.... although no such incident was ever recorded??...and no wreck that it may have sank with was anywhere near it................



One scenario that might account for this is if the LCT was damaged rather than sunk and the crew of the tank decided to head for the shore anyway rather than sit useless offshore. There's no way it would have made it 4 miles in which is why it was found where it was. I've no evidence for this but it's a possible answer.

Some further details have come back to me regarding the floundering of the DD's dropped closer inshore. IIRC the crews were using church steeples as aiming markers. However as the longshore current pushed them laterally off course they naturally rotated to remain pointing at the designated steeple and thus got gradually more broadside to the swell until they swamped. That's the theory proposed in the TV programme mentioned earlier in the thread.


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