# WW1 brass plates



## oldscrote (Jun 26, 2012)

As some of you know my Dad died recently and I ended up being given a lot of bits and pieces of his by mum.Amongst them were this series of brass plates commemorating the various places and battles his dad ,my grandfather, fought in during The Great War I've never seen anything like them before and was wondering if this was a common thing to do.Grandfather started of in the army but transferred to the RFC later becoming a founder member of the RAF,he was a Warrant Officer 1 and was a gunnery instructor.He continued in the RAF after the war and some of the plates may commemorate later service although he spent the latter part of his service at Eastchurch,and boy do I have a load of black and white photos of those days.

I've checked this out with Krela and have full permission to post these,thanks Krela






























Also was this plate that must have been on a case or trunk of some sort and poignantly some one has added the word late as he died in by his own hand in 1938






The man himself looking a bit like Windsor Davies in 'It ain't half hot mum'



 

and a chest full of medals


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## whodareswins (Jun 26, 2012)

Having a father that is is very much into WW1 and a certain regiment (written a book too), I have never seen anything like this before. Must of been something he did in his spare time I imagine.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm wondering if these come from some sort of plaque that he may have received when he retired from the forces or for x years service?


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## gushysfella (Jun 26, 2012)

I have seen this type of plack before think they off medal cases? GF


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## oldscrote (Jun 26, 2012)

krela said:


> I'm wondering if these come from some sort of plaque that he may have received when he retired from the forces or for x years service?



A good thought, long service commemoration maybe.He first joined up with I believe the Hampshire Yeomanry in I think 1901 and was retired around 1928 so he had spent at least 27 serving King and Country


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## oldscrote (Jun 26, 2012)

Heres one I missed. A bit odd this one starts of in India and ends up in Uxbridge





Was there a n RAF station there?


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## sennelager66 (Jun 26, 2012)

If you don't mind can i post on of the pictures to my dad who researches WW1 in depth and might throw some light on this for you. 
It's really great to see some personal family history oldscrote. My father curates a museum in Belgium dedicated to those who fell during WW1 and he might have knowledge of the items above.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

Yes Uxbridge is actually one of the earliest RAF bases... The RFC moved there in 1917.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

In fact reading further it's where the RFC Gunnery training was based, which ties in perfectly with your knowledge.


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## oldscrote (Jun 26, 2012)

sennelager66 said:


> If you don't mind can i post on of the pictures to my dad who researches WW1 in depth and might throw some light on this for you.
> It's really great to see some personal family history oldscrote. My father curates a museum in Belgium dedicated to those who fell during WW1 and he might have knowledge of the items above.



Of course Senne be my guest,would certainly be interested to find out how he ended up in the trenches for 91 days without relief


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## TeeJF (Jun 26, 2012)

I don't suppose they could be an example of what was sometimes called 'trench art' could they? Many servicemen would cut up spent shell cases and fashion toys or object d'art from the metal. Oc he was on RFC bases then he'd have access to the necessary tools to stamp the brass. 

Just a thought.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

No they're not trench art. They're cut brass plates common to memorials and prize plaques.


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## oldscrote (Jun 26, 2012)

TeeJF said:


> I don't suppose they could be an example of what was sometimes called 'trench art' could they? Many servicemen would cut up spent shell cases and fashion toys or object d'art from the metal. Oc he was on RFC bases then he'd have access to the necessary tools to stamp the brass.
> 
> Just a thought.



It's a possibility but from what I know of the man I don't think he was the sort of chap to do that, probably considering it a waste of time and something only 'oicks' did


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## AJK65 (Jun 26, 2012)

It may be of some interest to you to know that the 22 April 1915 during the 2nd battle of Ypres saw the first use of Gas on the Western Front.


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## GEMTX (Jun 26, 2012)

*Wwi*

Outstanding!!!!!!


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## Ninja Kitten (Jun 26, 2012)

how interesting..and what a proud looking man..i like posts like this.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

There's something that's very personal about this, it's about location and personal experience rather than anything formal. If it was formal it would have more details like what detachments/departments he served in and stuff like that. My hunch is like I said above, that this was a present either for an in service anniversary or retirement. My opinion is that it's a personal present from someone like a long time C.O. or colleague who he served with for a long time, someone who knew him well on a personal level. It's got that personal touch to it.

I imagine they would have been mounted on a wooden plaque which maybe got damp and rotted or was damaged in some similar way, and the engraved parts were removed and kept.

This is pure conjecture though, just a hunch.


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## sennelager66 (Jun 26, 2012)

Very possible Krela. It could have come out of the mess and akin to regimental battle honours.


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## Mike L (Jun 26, 2012)

Never seen anything like them but as the blanks all appear to be identical pattern they were either purpose made or part of a larger production run. What are the dimensions? Is the text stamped or engraved? Is font size all the same?
I imagine it must be something personal (rather than Regimental or Squadron) as it covers both Army and RFC/RAF service. Perhaps as already mentioned some sort of presentation piece where the original mount has not survived for some reason. And 91 days in the trenches without relief - amazing!
Great photos by the way.


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## krela (Jun 26, 2012)

They appear to be hand stamped to me, that's half their charm.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jun 27, 2012)

The clue is in the rectangular plate, particularly the words 'Late W. O. 1'. Have seen similar presentations - although these were all mounted on various backings (one backing was part of the wooden lid of the tool box the Warrant Officer in question had started his service life with) and the plaques were either oval or rectangular. The plaques are off a private presentation given by his fellow NCO's when he left the Service. NCO's were were always noted for their 'DIY' approach to procuring retirement/leaving presentation gifts - well they ran the Service, so could get anything made in base workshops. No stuffy Officer type engraved silver ashtray for these friends and comrades, something far more meaningful was required. 

On the mounted ones I have seen there was always a Division/Battalion etc badge in the center, although one contained a beautifully drawn pen and ink cartoon.


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## night crawler (Jun 27, 2012)

Nice bit of history, amazing what you find out about your relations after they have gone. Stunned at the 91 days wiout relief I was a book on Amazon saying the life expectancey was six weeks and in a lot of cases less. He must have been through some horrors.


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## penance (Jun 27, 2012)

I suspect they were part of a regimental plaque.


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## night crawler (Jun 27, 2012)

krela said:


> They appear to be hand stamped to me, that's half their charm.



Then they were dam good at it, I can never stamp in a straight line like that.


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## Seahorse (Jun 27, 2012)

night crawler said:


> Then they were dam good at it, I can never stamp in a straight line like that.



We used to do brass plates for attaching to equipment, and set the dies into a block for neatness. Made out of wood with a sliding thumbscrew type thing that let you get up to eight dies in a nice straight line.


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## oldscrote (Jun 27, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments, I'm somewhat overwhelmed by the response to this so if I don't mention you all please don't be offended
First of all Mike L the font size is the same on all the stamped lettering and the dimensions corner to corner are 3 1/4 inch by 1 3/4 inch or 82 by 45 mm 

I reckon Dirus and Krela have the answer there is a clue in this document which gives his service history and follows the names on the plates which,I,like an idiot have only just realised run in sequence


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jun 27, 2012)

oldscrote said:


> I reckon Dirus and Krela have the answer there is a clue in this document which gives his service history and follows the names on the plates which,I,like an idiot have only just realised run in sequence



That document gives you all the information required to prove that these plaques are off a very personal retirement gift from your Grandfather's fellow NCO's. He was obviously an old school professional soldier, a proud group of men who earned their promotions and were held in high esteem by those under them and those who worked alongside them. Only those here that have endured the hardships and dangers of military life, can really explain the bonds those men will have had for each other.

He had very valuable skills that were obviously recognised and needed in times of conflict - he was an excellent shot and armourer - his 1912 posting to Hythe and 1913 posting to Enfield lock prove that. That he was a loyal person is beyond doubt - at the end of WW1 he dropped rank to F/Sgt to remain in the fledgling RAF with his friends, rather than possibly take a commission (I am just going on other Flying Corps personnel with similar FC rank who 'transfered' into RAF) . As I stated previously, the experienced NCO's really did glue the Services together and your Grandfather had every right to look proud in those two photographs that were posted - a no nonsense bloke one could trust and whose work would not let you down. Your Grandfather's service record is remarkable and you should be very proud of him Oldscrote, I would have loved to have met him. 

Comment has been made on the neatness of the hand stamping on the plaques. Yes, the letter/number dies were or could be held in a small stamping frame, but one must remember that these armourers and fitters would have been stamping serial numbers and repair data on spares for machine guns and other weapons on a daily basis for years. One has only to inspect WW1 weapons to see many examples of their neat work.


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## flyboys90 (Jun 27, 2012)

This is really interesting,any chance of you posting the B&W photos?


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## Mike L (Jun 28, 2012)

Oldscrote, it might be worth posting on GWF (Great War Forum) to see if anyone has seen a similar set of plaques. I would do it for you but I am not a member there.
I could start a thread and put copies of your pics on WW2Talk (where I am a senior member) in the 'interwar years' forum if you have no objection.
Obviously you could post on either of those sites if you are already a member but for members of those sites to see content of a link to here at DP they would have to join this site.
Gets a bit complicated don't it?


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## UEP-Wales (Jun 28, 2012)

Mike L said:


> Obviously you could post on either of those sites if you are already a member but for members of those sites to see content of a link to here at DP they would have to join this site.



Just to let you know, you don't need to be a member of the forum to view the original thread, just to view the comments or post a comment / thread.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jun 28, 2012)

I have just realised that I have failed to highlight one of the most interesting and probably the most important fact ( in light of what happened in the 1914 battles) to be revealed by the service record of W.O A. W. Johnson.

As a Lance Sergeant Instructor in 1912/13, he was one of a small group of instructors that taught marksmanship to the professional British Army. This army; referred to as 'that Contemptible Little Army' by the Kaiser, had been drilled to place ten rounds aimed rapid fire down the range as a major part of their rifle training. In the ever retreating battles of 1914, these ten rounds firings were so accurate and intense that the advancing German troops thought they were up against many Machine Gun Companies.

If it were not for the training given by L/Sgt Johnson and his fellow instructors and the marksmanship of the British Army, the map of the battlefield at the end of 1914 would have looked very different. The honour 'Old Contemptible' was truly earned by these men.


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## Seahorse (Jun 28, 2012)

Dirus_Strictus said:


> these ten rounds firings were so accurate and intense that the advancing German troops thought they were up against many Machine Gun Companies.



You've just to love the Lee Enfield. Cracking weapon.


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## clinka (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't know what the plaques are for, but an idea that sprung to mind was relevant to the last rank he held. As a warrant officer or sgt major he may well have had a pace stick and the size of the plaques could easily be bent around the stick in much the same way that walkers do with small plaques in more modern times. As said - only an idea and nothing at all to base it on. I don't recall my old sgt major having plaques on his pace stick and certainly had it shoved under my nose often enough!


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jun 28, 2012)

Seahorse said:


> You've just to love the Lee Enfield. Cracking weapon.



Yes, the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) family up to and including the WW2 era No 4 were superb weapons, which in the right hands could be very accurate (the short barreled No 5 Jungle Carbine was somewhat of a letdown in the accuracy stakes). I have been fortunate over the years, to have been able to put a great number rounds down range from two SMLE Mk111 rifles (produced in 1912 and 1914). When these were obtained many years ago, it appeared that for some reason they had never been issued from stores - certainly the barrel bores exhibited none of the erosion one would associate with normal use of the cordite propellant filled rounds of the time. Stampings on the actions and barrels suggest that they may have been held as 'Patterns'. Using modern propellants and hand loads, these rifles are still capable of lovely tight groupings - even as they approach their centenary year.


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## oldscrote (Jun 28, 2012)

Once again thanks for the comments I had no idea this would generate so much interest.

Flyboy,I don't think this is the right place for pictures of Eastchurch however for a selection of my photos of Eastchurch You can find a lot scattered through the four pages at this link.As on most other forums I'm Conan on KHF,why I ended up as oldscrote on this one is even to me, a total mystery.

http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6261.0

Dirus thank you so much for your comments,he was by all accounts a very proud man and a military man to the very core of his being.I often wonder what inner compulsion drove him to take his own life with a service revolver in 1933 2 years after his discharge.Two years after discharge he still had the RAF in his bones as he was at RAF Catfoss working as a barrack warden when he died,At that time Catfoss was the No1 armament training camp.

Mike L thanks for the tips,will certainly post them on the forums you mentioned I'm a member of WW2 talk but haven't posted there yet


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## Seahorse (Jun 28, 2012)

Dirus_Strictus said:


> Using modern propellants and hand loads, these rifles are still capable of lovely tight groupings



I used to achieve 4 inch, 10 round groupings at 300 yards with an old Mk4 and bog standard ball, and I could barely lift the thing at 13 years old. I imagine strapping big squaddies that could hold the butt in nice and tight would have been hard pushed to miss anything they aimed at.

Mind you, I doubt I'd even manage to see the target at 300 yards nowadays, much less hit it.


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## Dirus_Strictus (Jun 28, 2012)

Oldscrote - The second sentence in your last posting left me with the weirdest feeling when I read it. I too have a grandfather I never knew and he was also in the military for most of his working life - Military Mounted Police until he retired from the service in 1927. His first wife, my mother's mother died when mother was quite young and he had remarried whilst posted at Aldershot in 1918. According to mother, stepmother was a harridan and the marriage appeared loveless. Out of the army he found employment as a groom and driver at a large estate outside Harrogate, but sadly his beloved horses were becoming a thing of the past to the new 'Gentry' of the day. This fact, the loss of comradeship and a loveless marriage led to him drowning himself in the Leeds canal one cold February afternoon in 1931.

I think both our Grandfathers, like many more then and since, were casualties of war, and like you I was eventually left (thank goodness) a trunk of memories that are now well loved and cherished. I also, by a strange quirk of genetics inherited his love of horses and dogs - he often wrote that they were the only beings that never let a person down and gave undemanding affection back. Looking at my Spaniels now at my feet and the horses I have been lucky enough to be able to ride long term, there is certainly a powerful truth in what he wrote.

Seahorse - 

Glad to meet (so to speak) a young good shot, were you shooting old WW2 production standard ball? We got hold of some late 40's produced stuff in the 60's, shot OK but some of it was really dirty and required a good clean before use.

Like you my aged eyesight will not allow me to wring the best out of any Lee Enfield rifle these days - still a SMLE fitted with its 1907 bayonet is good for clearing the odd uninvited guest out of the hallway.


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## krela (Jun 28, 2012)

Ptsd... :s


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## sweet pea (Jan 2, 2013)

there is an raf base in uxbridge they have a spitfire on a podium there alot of it is now residential houses for familys of servicemen and women they are currently demolishing alot of the residential stuff and a few old buildings there i live about two miles from raf uxbridge


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## MrDan (Jan 3, 2013)

As far as I know, Uxbridge was _*THE*_ first RAF base, the site was already owned by the Government and the RAF moved in the day it was founded. (It's not far at all from where I live)


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