# Civil Proceedings



## daimo_45 (Jul 5, 2012)

We're all aware of the legalities of trespass and as a result getting caught has never reaaly bothered me when I was self-employed. 

Reacently I have stopped working for myself and have joined a regulated industry where not only is my criminal record checked but my civil record. 

We all know trespassing is a civil offence but how likely is it the landowner will follow through with civil proceedings?

I've been caught once and nothing came of it (nicest sec ever) but was wondering if there's anyone on the forum who's been pursued by the landowner?

I've obviously read the trespass forum thread and understand the law but was after anyone's experiences where things have escalated past eviction.

If you've been caught loads of times and nothing has ever come of it I would love to know as it would put my mind at rest!!!!


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## UrbanX (Jul 5, 2012)

It'll only turn into something if they can prove a loss of earnings from your actions...


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## leftorium (Jul 5, 2012)

I think the biggest risk is getting detained on inappropriate charges of one sort or another and being talked into taking a caution - that said I wouldn't be doing any UE anywhere near any Olympic sites for the next couple of months the consequences could be much more dire.

there was someone on here or 'in another place' that got hung out to dry though for what seemed fairly innocuous activity


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## night crawler (Jul 5, 2012)

It's doubtful if a landowner would bother with proceedings because of the cost involved in bringing the case, if it was criminal trespass then that is a different matter. If damage is involved then the police get involved and then there may be proceedings brought against the person involved. The other thing to remember is if your caught they can't touch you or they could be had for assault they only have to ask you to leave, if there is security you will be escorted off but the best thing is do you homework and don't get caught.


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## krela (Jul 5, 2012)

In over 10 years I have never heard of a single case of civil charges being pursued. I do know a couple of people who have been criminally prosecuted though, on fabricated charges.


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## krela (Jul 6, 2012)

skeleton key said:


> In a year you if you’re getting about you can expect a few of these and loose no sleep over them at all



Unfortunately that's not true. Sometimes the police enter arrests onto the PNC database, even if they're NFA, which means they can show up on an enhanced CRB check. I also know of two people who have been successfully been prosecuted for "being found in an enclosed space". As far as I can gather the "being found in an enclosed space" law was passed in Victorian times to prevent vagrants from sleeping in derelict buildings and is rarely used these days, but it's not unheard of.

Let's make no mistake about it, urbex flies very close to civil and criminal legal boundaries and it *is* a risk if you have something to lose. A small risk, but a risk none the less.


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## krela (Jul 6, 2012)

Unfortunately it's not necessarily that easy getting arrests removed from your police record, and not everyone's MP is that interested in stuff like that.


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## Kona King (Jul 6, 2012)

There has been an increase in prosecutions for' being found in enclosed premises ' . This is in part a response to the huge increase in metal theft from derelict buildingS - and in some cases no so derelict! 

If you have any kind of tool (if and when the old bill turn up) then you may face charges of ' going equipped ' . If the landowner provides a statement then 'criminal damage ' may apply. Its a bit of a mine field and if you do get tugged and end up at the police station say nothing, sign nothing (except to provide personal details ie. identity, DOB) until you have spoken to a solicitor. 

Chances are nothing will come of the matter but, as has been said before do your homework, scout the location. I think all genuine participants on this site are of the same mind - we just wanna look inside. 

Common sense applies in many areas. If it looks dodgy give it a miss. Your choice.


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## TeeJF (Jul 6, 2012)

Just a word of extra caution here... in the UK we are lucky in that trespass is a "none crime" because of the need for damage/breaking in/theft to be coupled with it for prosecution, and at which point it ceases to be trespass any longer and becomes a crime which is arrestable etc etc etc.

Am I explaining myself properly? Hope so!

But in Germany I am informed that trespass IS a crime... it's a very black and white country with respect to the law, and that's no bad thing in my opinion frankly. But with cheap flights and so many inviting sites on the continent... well you see where I'm coming from I hope.

Consider too that in Belgium the police are known to have rocked up at one rather good site recently with guns drawn. As to the former eastern bloc... well I am assured that there is very little regulation of secca, they are armed and often very drunk on duty...

Maybe being arrested by a reasonably respectable police force isn't such a bad option in some cases but for me I prefer to walk out the same way I walked in!


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## leftorium (Jul 6, 2012)

it's also worth noting that the police are now able to give a confidential opinion about an individual as part of a CRB check or an informal enquiry by a headmaster etc. This is designed to protect children at risk and to allow the police to advise if there is a mounting body of circumstantial evidence against an individual which may constitute a suspicious pattern of behaviour yet is insufficient to allow prosecution. 

If you are viewed as a thorn in the side of a particular constabulary then this is unlikely to be a favourable conversation. I know a few policeman and they suggest the consensus amongst the police is urbexers in pursuit of their hobby are wasteful of their scant resources and if they are called to an explore they have no idea whether you are a six stone weakling with a camera or a twenty two stone bare knuckle boxing champion with a jemmy and bolt croppers 

If you are working in an industry that is heavily regulated or ever need to get government security clearance then you may be better off being an urbex spectator rather than an active participant or look for permission visits. It is down to individual choice but a pattern of involvement with the law no matter how innocuous the activity will not go down well with some prospective employers


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## Mars Lander (Jul 6, 2012)

leftorium said:


> it's also worth noting that the police are now able to give a confidential opinion about an individual as part of a CRB check or an informal enquiry by a headmaster etc. This is designed to protect children at risk and to allow the police to advise if there is a mounting body of circumstantial evidence against an individual which may constitute a suspicious pattern of behaviour yet is insufficient to allow prosecution.
> 
> If you are viewed as a thorn in the side of a particular constabulary then this is unlikely to be a favourable conversation. I know a few policeman and they suggest the consensus amongst the police is urbexers in pursuit of their hobby are wasteful of their scant resources and if they are called to an explore they have no idea whether you are a six stone weakling with a camera or a twenty two stone bare knuckle boxing champion with a jemmy and bolt croppers
> 
> If you are working in an industry that is heavily regulated or ever need to get government security clearance then you may be better off being an urbex spectator rather than an active participant or look for permission visits. It is down to individual choice but a pattern of involvement with the law no matter how innocuous the activity will not go down well with some prospective employers



Think that is the most practical way to think on this subject, as basically yes you most certainly won't get into serious trouble but long term there is the chance especially if you get caught a lot that you may end up with a potential blackmark against your name that could matter under the right circumstances especially in job potential, its a risk one has to weigh up or DONT get caught


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## UEP-Wales (Jul 6, 2012)

The most confusing post on the forum to date when looking quickly SK!


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## sennelager66 (Jul 6, 2012)

I have only been stopped once and questioned by a policeman. I was photographing the Police station and courthouse which happened to be the original Art Deco buildings of the De Havilland site. Yes it looked suspicious and he questioned my motives. If you have sufficient evidence that you are legit in what you are photographing and act in an approachable and honest manner then this often goes a long way in the outcome. It helped that i had preliminary information detailed on maps, and answered his knowledge of the site correctly. The Policeman asked to see my photographs to also back my story up. Happy he let me on my way. 
We all take risks in any area of explore we do and so long as we all respect the opposing view of leaving a site when challenged then it should not escalate up to potential Police involvement and any number of potential outcomes. If an abandoned building or site - do not damage anything when gaining access, if need be ask permission at the time or if needed, prior to the visit.


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## krela (Jul 7, 2012)

SK while I respect your experience and opinions they are just that, your own experiences and opinions. They are not fact and not necessarily applicable to everyone else. If you want an answer to the original question then you have to look at everyone's experiences and events surrounding the wider community. I have been involved with the community for around 10 years now, and running this website I have got to hear about a wide range of peoples experiences over that time. Running this website also means I have regular contact with various police forces up and down the country.

Firstly, CRB checks are not specifically about protecting children, they are exactly what the name implies, a "criminal record bureau" check. All sorts of employers use them JUST to find out if you have a criminal record, and some employers wont employ people without a clean CRB check, period, including ASDA. (Yes, even supermarkets carry out CRB checks on their employees now). 

Non-prosecuted arrests shouldn't remain on the database but sometimes they do, employers shouldn't judge you if they show up on a CRB check but sometimes they do, and you should be able to get them removed but sometimes you can't. You can argue about what should and shouldn't be all you like, but those are the facts. 

Also laws are not black and white, will be interpreted and used in different ways by different forces, and often by different PCs within a force, this is also true of what does and doesn't make it onto your PNC record. It's not consistent and some will remove database entries once an NFA is issued, others wont. 

The whole 'what we do isn't illegal' argument kinda falls down too. It's 100% civilly illegal, and CAN be criminally illegal if the police decide to charge you with being found in an enclosed space, which was not designed to be used against trespassers but is so vaguely worded that it is sometimes applied. It's also a risk that you may face criminal charges that are untrue or that they can't prove such as criminal damage, B&E, aggravated trespass, or even threatening behaviour. Even if NFA is taken or you're found not guilty it's possible that the arrest/charge can remain on your record and be difficult to remove.

*The fact is that there are people within the urbex community who have been arrested, charged and successfully prosecuted (one I can think of for being found in an enclosed space, the other on jumped up charges of aggravated trespass). There are also one or two people who have either lost their jobs, or got themselves in deep shit with their employers over it. *

You can say "this is what's happened to me", or "that shouldn't happen", or "you should protest it" etc all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a possibility. It's very rare that anything bad happens legally, but it DOES happen, and if you have something to lose then you need be aware of the risks. Simply put, every time you draw yourself to the attention of the police you are putting yourself at risk of having a black mark against your name, and the more it happens the more likely it is for that black mark to become something that will count against you at some point.


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## krela (Jul 7, 2012)

skeleton key said:


> I’m honestly begging to wonder how some people manage to get out of their own houses UN aided



I consider it one of the many minor miracles of nature.


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## TeeJF (Jul 7, 2012)

You made mention there of something I haven't heard of... What is Aggravated Trespass?


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## UEP-Wales (Jul 7, 2012)

TeeJF said:


> You made mention there of something I haven't heard of... What is Aggravated Trespass?



Just sending you some info over via PM  PDF to be exact.


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## Dark Descent (Jul 7, 2012)

i got caught by the police today, they simply ran us through a background check to check we had no convictions and let us go then and there.


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## TeeJF (Jul 8, 2012)

S-10 hunter said:


> i got caught by the police today, they simply ran us through a background check to check we had no convictions and let us go then and there.



That tends to be the norm unless you are in somewhere a bit sensitive OR you get a bolshy dibble who's been having a bad day. 

The ley is your approach - be polite and pleasant and it doesn't hurt to apologise for "wasting their time".


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## Judderman62 (Jul 8, 2012)

Urbex-SW said:


> Just sending you some info over via PM  PDF to be exact.



oooh would you be happy to send me that too ?


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## The Archivist (Jul 8, 2012)

TeeJF said:


> You made mention there of something I haven't heard of... What is Aggravated Trespass?



Thought this was covered somewhere on the forum, but maybe I'm wrong. 

For those of you not inclined to wait on a PM/PDF, there's a useful, if somewhat hard to follow definition here under 'Aggravated Trespass: Charging Practice'


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## Ninja Kitten (Jul 8, 2012)

TeeJF said:


> You made mention there of something I haven't heard of... What is Aggravated Trespass?



it is when you really really get on the landowners nerves to the point where you are running round and round him in circles..jumping up and down..squeezing his lil red puffy cheeks.. then throwing your self on the floor at his feet pulling at his trousers and relentlessly sobbing..let me in ..let me in..

i think thats what it means...


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## krela (Jul 8, 2012)

Ninja Kitten said:


> it is when you really really get on the landowners nerves to the point where you are running round and round him in circles..jumping up and down..squeezing his lil red puffy cheeks.. then throwing your self on the floor at his feet pulling at his trousers and relentlessly sobbing..let me in ..let me in..
> 
> i think thats what it means...



Isn't that your standard entry tactic though NK?


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## Ninja Kitten (Jul 8, 2012)

krela said:


> Isn't that your standard entry tactic though NK?



Dam..secrets out..


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## Oyster (Jul 8, 2012)

I didn't feel that the thanks button was adequate here. 

Thank you for this, it pays to be informed, I have had two encounters with the police so far and both have concluded on good terms, more by dint of having been polite and co-operative than anything else. Aggravated trespass is something that none of us should ever be accused of, if asked to leave then it really is time to go somewhere else...

I personally have a lot to lose from a prosecution or at the very least a CRB/PNC entry and so am very conservative about my access strategies, I am also sometimes privy to information regarding derelict places that is helpful. I have limited experience but would have to say that there is no substitute for good reconnaissance, I know it's a nause especially when you're impatient to see a place but it's paid me good dividends so far...

Happy exploring.


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