# The torch and lighting thread.



## Gromr (Jul 21, 2017)

I'll admit it, I have a torch problem. As in I can't stop buying more of them. 
Most people stop at a Led Lenser P7.2 and call it a day.

I decided we need a thread to discuss torches and lighting tools.

Currently my weapons of choices are a Thorfire C8s (super long throw torch that's great for long tunnels) and a CN-160 LED array for flood lighting a wide area. Been super effective for nice even light painting so far.

What kinda lighting does everyone else here use?

Discuss.


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## krela (Jul 21, 2017)

Another thread to discuss torches you mean? There have been many over the years.  

I use a tiny red single LED keyfob torch, and a very old but still working fine cree led mini-maglite conversion. That's it.


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## Malenis (Jul 21, 2017)

I have a stash of torches that the fella buys me, he also has a torch problem  

Led lenser P7.2 is my current fav....although jsp has one I'm liking the look of!


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## mookster (Jul 21, 2017)

I put off buying a P7.2 for ages, but then last year my previous torch decided it worked better in small pieces and just at that moment one of the Amazon daily deals came up with a 50% reduction on a P7.2, well you'd have to be an idiot to pass that up.

I also use a CV Life cree torch which is very very good as well, at this point in time I'm not sure which of my torches is the 'backup'!


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## smiler (Jul 21, 2017)

krela said:


> Another thread to discuss torches you mean? There have been many over the years.
> 
> I use a tiny red single LED keyfob torch, and a very old but still working fine cree led mini-maglite conversion. That's it.


But you're part bat Krela, I don't have a torch problem, fetish, maybe, got a load of em, I like the X21, no good for pics though, the P7 is a good all round torch


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## MD (Jul 21, 2017)

Led lenser P7.2 takes some beating 
my back up a Fennix 
and this is my Tunnel/mine torch 
LED Lenser X21R.2 Rechargeable LED Torch


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## Andrew32 (Jul 22, 2017)

I use converted led floodlight chips powered by massive lithium polymer batteries and heatsinks+fans to keep it cool, makes for amazingly lit photography and lasts for ages


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## Gromr (Jul 22, 2017)

Andrew32 said:


> I use converted led floodlight chips powered by massive lithium polymer batteries and heatsinks+fans to keep it cool, makes for amazingly lit photography and lasts for ages



Nice! Nothing like some DIY lighting. 
I've got a Thorfire S70s on order at the moment. Something like 4000 lumens and 700m of throw. That's gonna be my big underground light.


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## fluffy5518 (Jul 22, 2017)

Good thread Gromr,
I have used many, many various torches over the years from many manufacturers. My fav's were non led ordinary filament bulb types which gave a lovely yellowish glow. unfortunately these were very large and only lasted minutes on full power. Next came the led types which fitted the bill exactly but unfortunately gave a very blue light. Now we have moved on a bit and with the advent of Cree leds the lighting seems much whiter !! Currently i have from Lenser a P7.2 a P14 and a P17.2 and also a M7RX (which is by far the best all round torch i own, although rediculously expensive !!) and a couple of mid range Fenix although im not overly impressed with these. Amazingly some of the best torches i have found for light painting are the really cheep head torches available post free from China on Ebay. For close to mid distance work these give a really good flood area requiring less frantic wrist action !!! Unfortunately they are a bit hit and miss especially regarding white balance and out of the six i own only two are used to light paint.
I have got to say that your visit to Ouvrage Latiremont was lit to perfection and really impressive - so much so that i've ordered a Thorfire C8s. I think that the moral of the story is that you dont have to spend a fortune on a named brand to get what youre looking for but buying cheap is a bit of a step in the dark !!


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## SlimJim (Jul 22, 2017)

All about the numbers. Any torch can fail. 3 is 2, 2 is 1 and 1 is none.

Big up the CN-160 

Tool grade torches from old skool manufacturers for primaries all the way. Sod the lumens.


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## krela (Jul 22, 2017)

SlimJim said:


> Tool grade torches from old skool manufacturers for primaries all the way. Sod the lumens.



This. 

Those £10 torches from lidl may have the same LED in them as the quality high cost ones, but they do not have the same build quality, waterproofing or testing behind them, and you don't want to be trying to find your way out of an underground quarry in the pitch black. 

There is, and should be, a fundamental difference in thought between torches you're betting your life on, and things you're using to light photos. They're two entirely different things.


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## Gromr (Jul 22, 2017)

This is very true. There is a reason why people spend £80+ on high quality torches, in some cases your life depends on it. Always good to have several backups too, even if it's just a couple Amazon Cree jobbys. 

Currently eyeing up a Armytek Wizard Pro V3 but can't quite justify the £75 price tag...


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## smiler (Jul 22, 2017)

Gromr123 said:


> This is very true. There is a reason why people spend £80+ on high quality torches, in some cases your life depends on it. Always good to have several backups too, even if it's just a couple Amazon Cree jobbys.
> 
> Currently eyeing up a Armytek Wizard Pro V3 but can't quite justify the £75 price tag...



That looks interesting Grom, Thanks


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## prettyvacant71 (Jul 23, 2017)

krela said:


> Another thread to discuss torches you mean? There have been many over the years.
> 
> I use a tiny red single LED keyfob torch, and a very old but still working fine cree led mini-maglite conversion. That's it.



Keep hold off them Krela they will be worth something one day


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## prettyvacant71 (Jul 23, 2017)

I'm feeling out of my depth

I've been meaning to update my box of matches for years...I'm gona have to read these comments a few times to digest them, I'm scared already its become very technical.

Much appreciated Gromr


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## smiler (Jul 23, 2017)

I started out exploring audits with one candle power but even at such a young age I had the sense to carry a slpare, 
Being Serious for once although it goes against the grain, 
A good torch is a must and as someone has said can be a lifesaver, a decent back up is also a good idea. Get the best you can afford and carry spare batteries, being underground without light is frightening even when you know the way out, I wouldn't want to experience it again, Stay Safe


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## cogito (Jul 23, 2017)

I try to avoid light painting from the front if at all possible, unless I'm trying to replicate window light. The reason being that it can create quite a "flat" lighting that lacks contrast or depth between elements in the scene. When I do though, I do like the Lenser torches as they create quite an even light with no hotspots. Examples: 

Lit with a single LED Lenser P7 to replicate window light:






Lit with a single LED converted Mini Maglite:





The main drawbacks of these torches being how weak they are, requiring either long exposure times (several minutes for the Maglite) or requiring a larger aperture (shallower depth of field) than I'd like to allow more light in. For larger scenes they're pretty much useless, unless you're happy doing exceptionally long exposures which inevitably lead to hot pixels from sensor overheating.

That's where the Chinese CREE torches come in. 






I've got a couple of these single chip torches that are lightweight and powerful, they might not have the out and out quality of manufacture of the Lensers and Maglites, but they're still machined chunks of tough aluminium alloy with easily replaceable double seals for wet environments. They kick out much more light, they allow shorter exposures or a larger depth of field. They do however have hotspots on the beam pattern, making them unsuitable for trying to replicate an even natural light, but perfect for texture-enhancing backlighting. Examples:











As you can see, nice large depth of field within a standard 30 second exposure time. Although it does mean that for shots with people they still need to stay pretty still and you inevitably lose some sharpness on them due to tiny movements.

And so enter... The 10-chip Chinese CREE behemoth. 






You can take what they say about Lumen output with a hefty pinch of salt, but they do kick out a lot of light. Comparing one side by side with the headlights of a Toyota Yaris there was really not much in it, one single handheld torch as bright as car headlights. Oof.

This is where exposure times really start to fall, or you can use it to illuminate huge spaces very easily. For example, this tunnel shot had an exposure time of just a quarter of a second allowing me to retain the definition of the smoke where other torches would have required a 20-30 second exposure perhaps:






And for lighting large spaces easily, such as the entrance to the infamous Cathedral chamber in Box:






There is another side effect to having such a powerful torch too, which brings me right back to the start of this post and that is recreating a softer more natural light. They're powerful enough to bounce off raw concrete quite well without too much loss of light and still maintaining a small aperture / large depth of field. Example of bouncing the light overhead to illuminate a very dark area:






So that's the main options and techniques that I use regularly. There's no real hard and fast answer to all light painting solutions in all scenarios, its more a case of being aware of what you'll be photographing and how best to light it. None of which have to cost the earth or weigh a lot.






(Sorry for the mixed size images, was just fishing through exported images for examples.)


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## Electric (Jul 23, 2017)

I started with a British Rail 'Bardic' handlamp, it did its job.
Later on, a lenser P5. It was great and lasted years. It rolled off the end of the bed, landed on some soft shag pile carpet in a hotel and broke. I have never understood why and couldn't fix it.

Since then, I have used those horrid cheap little Chinese CREE ones, as after all, no crying when they get broken.
The Bardic or a big Maglite occasionally get an outing, but they are dim and useless by comparison.


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## Conrad (Jul 23, 2017)

P7.2 and a cheap head torch with red light. 

Can't fault the lenser use it all the time for work and it's been bumped about while exploring and is still going strong. It does burn through batteries fast. The P7.2 is sometimes on offer from amazon at a good discount as well.


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## Mikeymutt (Jul 23, 2017)

Sadly I don't have a torch fetish.i have a cheap one of Amazon.and I keep two led tube lights in my bag.but don't really get to go underground much.i should invest in a better torch.i always bump up the iso a bit and luckily my lenses are very fast.great pics cogito.love the box mine one.


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## foxtrot (Jul 23, 2017)

Well there's the torches I own and the ones I use 
Current exploring line up consists of my current favourite a Lenser H7R.2 (rechargeable and hands free), a now battered Lenser Police Tech Focus, A Lenser P7 (mainly as a backup or spare torch for exploring with mates who think a phone is acceptable...). Some times my snap-on COB LED inspection light joins me if I want a less focused background light or if where I'm going is particularly messy.

I also have a stock of Cyalume light sticks (the proper military ones with a NSN) which I have the 12hr green for general use and the 5min ultra orange which is good for about 30 mins which is fine for finding your way out of somewhere should all other light sources fail its also perfect for exploring buildings in urban areas at night where torches are a no go as the light given off mimics street lighting pretty well!


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## Gromr (Dec 1, 2017)

So I recently decided to modify a cheap cree light I've had for a while to make the 'Perfect' light painting torch. I've got many torches but I was after something that could paint up dark spaces super evenly and show all the details super clearly. 


*I spent some time nerding out and really thinking about what makes the perfect 'Light painting' torch.*


*Beam*
A torch with a nice soft floody beam will nicely light up a space very evenly, but won't travel far so won't reach to the end of a long tunnel. A focused throwy torch will easily light up a long tunnel, but leaves streaky light as the hotspot of the light is harsh and can make painting evenly tricky. 

This leads me onto focusable lights like the trusty Led Lenser P7.2. A very versatile torch and great for painting as it can be both zoomed in for long tunnels and zoomed out for nice soft even lighting. A great torch no doubt, but not very bright at 320 Lumens and the tint isn't brilliant either. Also using AAA batteries isn't the best power source IMO. The only downside of a focus-able torch is that it wastes a lot of lumens through lens inefficiencies compared to a fixed focus torch.

*Lumens*
I think something around 500 Lumens is probably enough for most uses. You could almost argue that a lower output light is better for painting as you have to take a longer exposure photo. This gives you more time to carefully paint an area meaning that the spread of light can created more evenly with no burnt out bits. Trying to paint evenly over 5 seconds is going to be much harder than doing it over 45 seconds. 

*Tint and CRI*
Ever used a cheapy cree torch and noticed how everything is a horrible blue tint? 
That's because they use a cheapy LED with a very low CRI rating, so it casts a blue tint on everything rather than showing the true colour of an object. 

A 'Hi-CRI' torch solves this as the light spectrum has a wider range of colours so brings out the true colours of whatever your lighting up. 
A light with a nice tint and CRI rating (Colour Rendition Index) can really make colours pop out and bring out some lovely detail. 

CRI is measured in percentage, and anything 85 CRI and above is considered 'Hi-CRI'. Your standard Chinese cree light or Lenser will be something around 60-70 CRI. An old Incandescent light bulb torch has a CRI of 100, so LED technology hasn't quite caught up with them yet.

When it comes to the tint of a torch, it can either be Blue, White or Yellow. A warmer slightly yellow tint tends to produce a nicer image, but this is a personally preference thing.

The last thing is battery source. It has to be Lithium 18650 as this has the best power density of any commonly available battery at the moment. 



*Knowing all this I decided that the ideal torch would have to be:
*
Focus-able
Hi-CRI (90+)
Uses 18650 Batteries 
around 500 Lumens
A warmish tint of around 4500K to 4000K.


It's very hard to find a torch like this for sale, as there isn't really any HI-CRI focus-able torches on the market, so I would clearly have to make my own.



Here is my old light in bits. The LED was an old nasty one with blue tint and it wasn't very bright (around 250 Lumens?) It was zoomable, but a bit rough and stiff so need a bit of cleaning up. 








So the simple solution was to buy a new LED and a better driver board to provide more power. More power equals more Lumens. Luckily you can buy these pre-soldered onto a board that virtually drop straight in the torch bodies. 

I settled for a Nichia 219C LED at 4000K tint. It had a CRI of 93, so ideal. 
The new driver board put out 3 amps of power, so should be enough for a bit more output. 

All of this came to about £6 from a kaidomain.com. Not bad!


While I was waiting for the parts to arrive I decided to bling up the body of the torch and add some personal touches, because I clearly had nothing better to do! 

Using a Dremel I removed the black anodized finish back to the aluminium and polished it till it was shiny. 







Finally after almost 3 weeks my new LED parts arrived. I soldered the new parts in and added some thermal paste to dissipate the extra heat that it would be generated. I have access to a laser engraver through work, so decided to Laser engrave it too. 

I dub thee 'The Painter'. 


*The final product*
























This is my the tint compared to my Led Lenser M7 (which has a pretty blue tint)


*Led Lenser M7*







*'The Painter'* 







And a test paint at Coulsdon Deep Shelter







It was a lot of work for what some people may seem as a very small improvement, but I'm pretty happy with it!

Most importantly though, its shiny!


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## Sam Haltin (Dec 2, 2017)

That's a good idea, but is that what happened to all those 3.5 inch floppy disks. I might make a pen holder like yours using 3.5 inch floppy disks.


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## Brewtal (Dec 2, 2017)

Man you’ve got a serious fetish going on! Seriously though, glad the project worked and that’s a great write up and valuable info. I recently got one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01IB9TWT6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Haven’t given it a proper test yet but been faffing around with it at 6am at work and it’s great because you can adjust the tint and it is bloody bright. So hopefully I can match the tint of my lenser.

Maybe we should meet up and do an A/B comparison. I doubt I will get such a smooth result as your pic, it’s damn near perfect. Would be interesting to do the exact same pic twice just changing the light source.


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## krela (Dec 2, 2017)

Looks good grom.


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## Sam Haltin (Dec 2, 2017)

Brewtal said:


> Man you’ve got a serious fetish going on! Seriously though, glad the project worked and that’s a great write up and valuable info. I recently got one of these:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01IB9TWT6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...



I've got two of these and use them as studio lights.


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## smiler (Dec 2, 2017)

Damn but that's good, My Grandsons finished building his 3D printer so he will enjoy a new project,


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## BikinGlynn (Dec 2, 2017)

I use my bile light, USE Exposure MAXX D, they are simply unbelievable bombproof, bright as most car headlights & last for ages, but I guess that's what u pay for!
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Exposure-M...MI4tr5yqPs1wIVzZztCh36LgBYEAQYAyABEgI4tPD_BwE


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## Derelictspaces (Dec 4, 2017)

Petzl Duobelt with the Omni V5 upgrade for my main light. 
Led Lenser P7.2 for my handheld. 

Also got a Duracell £20 job that's got a handy flood panel on it and an Energiser Vision HD+ headtorch as spares/lighting areas for pics. There's normally a Petzl Tikka in my bag too, picked that up in a lay by, that's my true 'get out of jail' light. Do normally carry a 150lm floodlight for lunch/picnic breaks too. 

All backed up by more spare batteries than you could shake a stick at.

I'd rather have more light/battery than I'll ever need than need it and not have it.


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## Gromr (Dec 4, 2017)

I'm well happy with my little Emisar D4 torch, it's 3500lumens and so small it can fit at the bottom of your jeans pocket. The only downside is the heat it emits is borderline dangerous. It burns paper quite easily.


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## HiddenScotsman (Jan 24, 2018)

Just use a petezl head torch which is my main light for my events work. If I can get away with I might use up to 4 flash guns. Looking at light panels just now after using Brewtals one on my last trip out.


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## Cuban B. (Jan 28, 2018)

Chinese miners lamp:


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## Brewtal (Jan 28, 2018)

That’s cool as fuck mate!


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## Cuban B. (Jan 29, 2018)

Cheers, it gets worn most weeks.


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