Part 2 - RNAS Worthy Down Pillbox Defences

This is the second part of my post for the Pillboxes Defences at Worthy Down Airfield in Hampshire. On the accompanying map at position 5 there is something that I have no idea of what it is. So any thoughts would be welcome. It is the second such similiar structure that I have found near the airfield. Sorry for the use of flash but it was getting rather dark and I had no tripod with me.

The shots were taken in August 2010.

Location map



No 1 - Battle HQ or Infantry Command Bunker - Built partially below ground and heavily overgrown



Entrance to the Battle HQ



Internal view - Twin loopholes with Turnbull mount frames still in-situ



Internal view of the entrance - the floor is some 5 to 6 feet below ground level



This cast iron casting was found in the HQ - any ideas what it is ?



Further view of the casting



Pillbox No 2 - no access possible



Internal view towards loophole



Pillbox No 3



Internal view of loophole showing a Turnbull mount frame



Some different metalwork in this loophole



Pillbox No 4



Internal view towards loophole



Location No 5 - I have no idea what this is. It is eight sided and is situated near the No 4 pillbox -
so anyone out there know what it is and its purpose ?



Detail of the roof structure - what was the hole for ?



There are alot of tank traps nearby



Tank trap



Pillbox No 6



Internal view of loophole with Turnball mount frame



Internal view showing another of the unexplained box structures



The end of another evenings exploring - sorry couldn't resist this sunset shot - many a Pillbox
soldier would have had this view whilst manning the defences



Thanks for looking.

Another cracking set. Were you able to check all the pillbox locations listed in the DoB? I've corrected a couple of locations based on this report but there are three that you missed (S0012725 - 7), I'm assuming you didn't find them at the marked locations or couldn't get access? Outstanding finding the BHQ by the way, that one wasn't on any list I know of.

cptpies said:

Another cracking set. Were you able to check all the pillbox locations listed in the DoB? I've corrected a couple of locations based on this report but there are three that you missed (S0012725 - 7), I'm assuming you didn't find them at the marked locations or couldn't get access? Outstanding finding the BHQ by the way, that one wasn't on any list I know of.

Click to expand...

In my usual way of not reading the instructions first I had not checked the DOB database before embarking on this explore. I found most of the boxes by chance or noted them on Google Earth. I hadn't realised there were more but suspected there maybe. So will now have a look at what I may have missed on DOB.

I'm reliably informed that the mystery structure is the remains of a Quetta hut.

http://www.airfieldinformationexcha...8-Another-mystery-structure&p=52006#post52006

The strange building looks like the remains of a Quetta hut, see here for an intact hut.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/790964

Thanks to CPT and Dexter 24 for clearing up the little mystery.

Excellent stuff there. Love the remains of the Quetta hut...not heard of that before. Haven't seen a Turnbull Mount before either, so two new ones for me. Cheers, Alf.

Foxylady said:

... Love the remains of the Quetta hut...not heard of that before...

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Me neither, and for those who're still baffled --> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/790964

Worthy Down Pillboxes.

The Buiding in image 5 is a Quetta Hut,

It was used as a guard house during the war. There is a second one nearer to the airfield itself. They were originally designed, or at least inspired, as emergency shelters for an earthquake in Quetta India in 1936. When complete they are clothed in Jute cloth and then rendered. They have three windows and a door built into the sides.There is a complete one at Andover airfield.I believe there are examples at Nether Wallop and Odiham too.

We are currently doing a complete survey of all the Pillboxes at Worthy Down, as well as other defence buildings from WWII. Perhaps it would be possible to swap information and photos!?

Michael Edwards

Michael Edwards said:

The Buiding in image 5 is a Quetta Hut,

It was used as a guard house during the war. There is a second one nearer to the airfield itself. They were originally designed, or at least inspired, as emergency shelters for an earthquake in Quetta India in 1936. When complete they are clothed in Jute cloth and then rendered. They have three windows and a door built into the sides.There is a complete one at Andover airfield.I believe there are examples at Nether Wallop and Odiham too.

We are currently doing a complete survey of all the Pillboxes at Worthy Down, as well as other defence buildings from WWII. Perhaps it would be possible to swap information and photos!?

Michael Edwards

Click to expand...

Yes I would be pleased to discuss with you. Please e-mail me - [email protected]

Quettas and troughs.

Referring to the photos on this posting, I wonder, just wonder, if the hole on the top of even the intact Quetta huts could be a smoke hole. If the huts were originally intended for Earhquake relief, that would be reasonable wouldn't it.The top of the Quetta in the wood near the Dragon's Teeth is actually rather broken out. The intact hut I have seen has a clean hole, about 9 inches in diameter blocked with a piece of wood (?) held in place by a dangling brick on a string!

I also wonder what the troughs are that can be found in virtually every pillbox in the area. They are usually up against one wall and are made of brieze blocks.Any ideas?

Michael Edwards said:

Referring to the photos on this posting, I wonder, just wonder, if the hole on the top of even the intact Quetta huts could be a smoke hole. If the huts were originally intended for Earhquake relief, that would be reasonable wouldn't it.The top of the Quetta in the wood near the Dragon's Teeth is actually rather broken out. The intact hut I have seen has a clean hole, about 9 inches in diameter blocked with a piece of wood (?) held in place by a dangling brick on a string!

I also wonder what the troughs are that can be found in virtually every pillbox in the area. They are usually up against one wall and are made of brieze blocks.Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I too cant figure what the troughs in each pillbox are for either. People have been lighting fires in some of them but I would say that would be rather smokey in a pillbox CTP Pies did wonder if they were for spent cartridges cases or magazines There are still three PB's on the site I still cant locate despite using the DOB database co-ords and GPS.

PBs at Worthy Down

There's a total of 25 pillboxes still extant at Worthy Down, including 2 P-H Forts! All but one are either in good or fair condition. One was blown up in the 60s or 70s but still stands, lopsided and somewhat ripped apart, but still standing. Many of the DOB positions are frankly wrong, and one is probably duplicated.

2 of the FW3/22s are in people's gardens and so not fair game. Several others are deep in hedges and even I had a terrible job finding them.

We know where they all are!! They had been at least one other, I think, a double-storey one but that was demolished when a rail-bridge was removed years ago (at least that's the story I heard).

Regarding the troughs, fires did come to mind, but in an enclosed space?! The other thought we had was spent cartridges etc. Maybe it was an emergency loo. If it's less pleasant outside because of ,maybe that would be the best option for the occupants.

Do email me again.

Michael Edwards.

Michael

Could you PM me the correct locations of the pillboxes so I can correct the locations in my overlay please.

Cheers

Steve

Michael Edwards said:

There's a total of 25 pillboxes still extant at Worthy Down, including 2 P-H Forts! All but one are either in good or fair condition. One was blown up in the 60s or 70s but still stands, lopsided and somewhat ripped apart, but still standing. Many of the DOB positions are frankly wrong, and one is probably duplicated.

2 of the FW3/22s are in people's gardens and so not fair game. Several others are deep in hedges and even I had a terrible job finding them.

We know where they all are!! They had been at least one other, I think, a double-storey one but that was demolished when a rail-bridge was removed years ago (at least that's the story I heard).

Regarding the troughs, fires did come to mind, but in an enclosed space?! The other thought we had was spent cartridges etc. Maybe it was an emergency loo. If it's less pleasant outside because of ,maybe that would be the best option for the occupants.

Do email me again.

Michael Edwards.

Click to expand...

Michael

I have not been able to send you a private message so please can you send me one with your e-mail address or send one to me on the address I put on the earlier post. It would be great to discuss the WD area in general and exchange info. I found both PH's one of which I have posted up on the forum. I have located the PB behind the house in Wonston but one of the others in the vicinity eludes me. The other two I cant find are - the one listed as being near the dereclict dutch barn and the one near the stables in Wonston. Generally the DOB co-ords have been fairly accurate but it would apper not on these three. I am keen to locate them so that I can complete my next post on the forum.

The unexplained box structures within pillboxes - could these have held sand to extinguish fires within the pillbox Or maybe a fire extinguisher could have stood in the box ? It could have been foreseen that a fire could break out in the PB if it was under attack ?

hydealfred said:

The unexplained box structures within pillboxes - could these have held sand to extinguish fires within the pillbox Or maybe a fire extinguisher could have stood in the box ? It could have been foreseen that a fire could break out in the PB if it was under attack ?

Click to expand...

I have a few thoughts on this alf.

You say the PB's with the mystery box structure were built in 1940? This being the case, they would not have been originally fitted with Turnbull mounts (introduced in 1941 I believe).

Given that gun bars could be supplied for a variety of guns including both Bren and Vickers, I think that what you have there is one firing position in the 1940 PB's converted later (by virtue of the Turnbull mounts introduction) for a Vickers MMG.

I think the box is an improvised structure for housing the Vickers' condensor tank, with the walls of the box among other things preventing the tank from being kicked over by the firer or crew in the heat of battle. A recess was built into some later PB's for this purpose. You couldn't have a recess in a thin walled PB, which yours appear to be. My understanding is that some PB's of this type were later reinforced by thickening the walls outwards to 3' 6". The recess could then be accommodated easily within the modification albeit not the main reason for the reinforcement.

Vickers with condensor tank



I could be wrong of course, but this is logical when you consider the pressure and urgency of getting inland defences up and running. PB's were modified ad hoc where necessary rather than rebuilt to new designs which was just plain common sense at this point in the war

Munchh said:

I think the box is an improvised structure for housing the Vickers' condensor tank, with the walls of the box among other things preventing the tank from being kicked over by the firer or crew in the heat of battle. A recess was built into some later PB's for this purpose. You couldn't have a recess in a thin walled PB, which yours appear to be. My understanding is that some PB's of this type were later reinforced by thickening the walls outwards to 3' 6". The recess could then be accommodated easily within the modification albeit not the main reason for the reinforcement.

Click to expand...

Given that those pillboxes were never built to house vickers MMGs and the fact that they wouldn't even fit I am very doubtful about this theory to be honest. I once heard a theory that they may have been designed to contain spent casings, but I'm not entirely convinced about that either.

Used to play in them as a child in the 60's, there are also a lot in the area of Hook pit Farm lane from Kingsworthy towards Worthy down Railway halt. there is / was at least one along the old dissused GWR line , between Worthy down and Kingsworthy junction. several in the surrounding fields.

Could that cast link not be a mount between the MG and the Tripod stand, it looks similar?

krela said:

Given that those pillboxes were never built to house vickers MMGs and the fact that they wouldn't even fit I am very doubtful about this theory to be honest. I once heard a theory that they may have been designed to contain spent casings, but I'm not entirely convinced about that either.

Click to expand...

Agreed, they weren't built to house Vickers MMG's. It's also true that Airfield defence strategy was constantly being updated. I referred to adaptation.

The space required to the rear of a PB loophole for using a Vickers on a Turnbull mount was 4' 9". I believe this is true for the Bren too? If this amount of room is not available in these PBs, then the idea that it wouldn't fit would also apply to the Bren. Ergo, why would you fit the mount if there wasn't enough room to use it?

If I'm wrong and the Bren requires significantly less room than the Vickers, then I take your point. I did consider all of this before posting my theory. The space issue can be easily confirmed or not by alf providing the required measurements from site (or memory). Unless you've been there yourself of course and can confirm that there is not enough room. Either is good enough for me.

I have no explanation as to why the Air Ministry may have suddenly decided that it was a good idea to use the Vickers in these PBs other than that under the right circumstances (enough space) and need, it was possible. And that coming up with somewhere to store the tank in a firing position not originally designed for its use may have been the cheap and easy reason for the box.

Agree on the spent casings theory possibly being bogus. Surely they would have had a box under each loophole with a Turnbull mount if this were its purpose. EDIT - Having said that, the box is in exactly the right position (ie below the gun) to catch the spent casings from a stripped down Vickers on a Turnbull. Of course this assumes that all the casings fall straight down and don't miss the box altogether.