Devon Coastal Defence

1. Coastal Artillery Searchlight Emplacement.



This is on Seaton seafront, built into the cliff & originally would have housed a searchlight to show up invading forces for the gunners. They were often used in conjunction with an emergency coastal battery.

A B&W photo taken some years ago. It's rather dark, but you can just about make out the curving steps up to the emplacement before the retaining wall was built.



2. Type Variant Pillbox.
Above the Searchlight emplacement & set back on the other side of Cliff Hill roadway is a type variant pillbox.



The embrasures have been blocked & pebble-clad to blend in with the rest of the surface.



A wall has been built on top of the pillbox to increase elevation.



3. Possible Emergency Coastal Battery.
Further up the hill & on top of the cliffs there is an hexagonal structure with a concrete surround. There is no record of this having been part of the defence system, that I could find, but it does fit in with the research re. the searchlight emplacement, and could have been the site for the emergency battery.





The type variant pillbox could have been used in conjunction but because it's set back somewhat I suspect that it may have been a road defence rather than coastal. This is conjecture on my part, therefore if I find out differently then I'll amend accordingly.

Photos showing the positions of the 3 emplacements.





Examples sited can be seen under 'Other Defences' at this link http:/www.pillboxes-somerset.com

There's More...

I found this oddity on the other side of the path to the hexagonal structure.It's a long concrete slab with some lead lining underneath, covering an underground enclosure. It may have nothing to do with the defence system, but I'll stick it in this thread until I learn differently.



Cheers
Foxy

And more...

Type 24 Pillbox.

Half-way up a field on the other side of the Axmouth Harbour bridge, & nestling into the edge of a private drive, sits the last pillbox of its' type of the Taunton Stop Line.







The last defence structure at the Harbour itself is a coastal defence battery, which would have housed a 6 pounder anti-tank gun. Unfortunately I didn't realise it was there prior to research, so will have to go back for photos, which I will post as soon as I have.

Cheers
Foxy

Hey Foxylady I enjoyed reading about your local pillboxes, good pics too.

3. Possible Emergency Coastal Battery.



I read somewhere recently about these emergency coastal battery positions, I'm not 100% on this but I think they were for a 6pdr anti tank gun. The example I read about was to be used against enemy landing craft, below is a pic of the 6pdr gun they would have possibly used its a WW1 French design by Hotchkiss probably built under licence?



The concrete slab across the path from the hexagonal gun position could have been a shelter for the gun crew? Or possibly a magazine/ammo store for the gun position?

B

Bishop;10818; said:

I read somewhere recently about these emergency coastal battery positions, I'm not 100% on this but I think they were for a 6pdr anti tank gun. The example I read about was to be used against enemy landing craft, below is a pic of the 6pdr gun they would have possibly used its a WW1 French design by Hotchkiss probably built under licence?

The concrete slab across the path from the hexagonal gun position could have been a shelter for the gun crew? Or possibly a magazine/ammo store for the gun position?

Click to expand...

Hi Bishop
I'm sorry, I forgot to put in that the batteries were for the Hotchkiss. In fact I missed out several bits and wrote it up badly, the reason being I accidentally lost my first report whilst putting in the pics, and I was so tired when I had to do it again that I rushed it through!
Anyway, thanks for your comments & information. I'm really excited about this. I wasn't sure at all about the cliff-top emplacements, but gut-feeling told me it all fitted somehow. I did wonder if the concrete slab sheltered an ammo store but thought I might have been reading too much into it, so it was good to hear your thoughts on this. (Good job you didn't hear my girlie squeal when I read it, though, as that would have ruined my street cred!).
Cheers
Foxy

Ms FL wrote.

(Good job you didn't hear my girlie squeal when I read it, though, as that would have ruined my street cred!).

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Hehe

I could be wrong but I believe the 6pdr gun was originally purchased for arming British tanks in WW1, obviously the tanks were out of date at the end of the war and were either sold off or scrapped but it seem the guns were retained and put into storage? Or perhaps they came from Royal Navy stocks they might have had a few and I've read that they were ex naval guns somewhere?

Late first world war tank with 6pdr guns in the sponsons.



Another pic of the 6pdr apparently manufactured at Elswick a huge armaments factory in Newcastle that employed over 7000 but was demolished in the 80's.



Ammo store or bunker or possibly both would make sense for the position across the path from the gun imo.

B

That's a great pic of the 6pdr gun, Bishop.

Bishop;10821; said:

I could be wrong but I believe the 6pdr gun was originally purchased for arming British tanks in WW1, obviously the tanks were out of date at the end of the war and were either sold off or scrapped but it seem the guns were retained and put into storage? Or perhaps they came from Royal Navy stocks they might have had a few and I've read that they were ex naval guns somewhere?

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I've just been reading on 'The Pillboxes of Somerset' website, under Other Defences, & it says: "In February 1940, the army had ordered the reconditioning of 400 WW1 vintage 6pdr Hotchkiss guns as part of it's re-armament programme...subsequently increased to a total of 621 guns. As they came into service, the guns were mounted in reinforced concrete emplacements, or open concrete gun-pits, along the expected route of enemy attack."
Elsewhere it does mention ex-naval guns being used & mounted in newly-built emplacements covering the British Channel approaches to Cardiff & Bristol, talking specifically about Brean Fort & the islands Steep Holm & Flat Holm.
I too seem to recall reading something about Canadian guns, but can't remember where. The Searchlights, by the way, were 90cm ex-AA, and they've got an original one in the Weymouth CAS emplacement.
Cheers
Foxy

Hi Foxy & Bishop,

Good info there!
It's interesting how some WW2 structures were almost identical, like off a production line, but others are different (even though they do the same job). For example, the coastal searchlights near you. I've seen some at Beacon Hill Fort, and they look totally different. I'm guessing that this is because some of these structures were put up in a hurry?
Anyway, thanks again. Hopefully below are some pics of the searchlight structures at Beacon Hill.................

Lb

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/... -Coastal Artillery Searchlights/DSCN2827.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/... -Coastal Artillery Searchlights/DSCN2814.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/... -Coastal Artillery Searchlights/DSCN2834.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/... -Coastal Artillery Searchlights/DSCN2822.jpg

I see what you mean, LB. They're totally different to the structures in Seaton & Weymouth. I haven't been able to get inside the Seaton one yet - (it's really easy actually, but an arthritic-type disability is just making it out of my reach at the moment) - so I don't know what it looks like inside or how reinforced it is, but it does look a lot flimsier outside than other emplacements I've seen.
Cheers for that, m'dear
Foxy

Hi guys,

interesting batch of pics!

I'm not sure what the hexagonal structure is; the slab it's sitting on appears to be WW2 concrete.

Could it be a post-war feature such as a seat or statue plinth at all? I only query it because it looks too elaborately made for the emergency of 1940.

I've been reading the war diaries of some of the Royal Engineers in Kent and Sussex who built the defences and the sheer haste and pressure to get stuff done (as Lb queries) doesn't fit with the neat construction of the hexagon. (I even found an example of where an old iron bedstead was used as barbed wire posts! )

Lb: as to why the designs can differ, this can be down to the availability of materials locally, and also the local ground conditions. There was presumably a set of standard plans, but give the same plan to different people and you'll get different results. Different RE units seem to have had their favourite pillbox designs; in East Sussex, there's very few Type 22s, but go to Kent and you can jump from one end of the county to the other just using Type 22s as stepping stones.

I've not previously seen the vertical slots such as are seen in your pics of the CASL (Coast Artillery Search Light) at Beacon Hill Fort, but having read the Fort Record Books* for several Emergency Coast Batteries, the arcs of searchlights are carefully plotted on maps, so those slots probably mean something. Batteries had a pair of CASLs; normally one on each flank, or on low ground if the battery was up on a cliff.

*Fort Record Books were a handbook for a battery; they contained various gunnery data (range tables, tech. specs, gun test-fire data), but also a history of the battery, and plans of its layout and defences, and the locations of registered targets. Those that survive are the National Archives WO 192 series.

Going back to the original pics, is the Seaton we're talking about the same Seaton in the pic below?

Pete

gaspirator;10845; said:

I'm not sure what the hexagonal structure is; the slab it's sitting on appears to be WW2 concrete.
Could it be a post-war feature such as a seat or statue plinth at all? I only query it because it looks too elaborately made for the emergency of 1940.

There was presumably a set of standard plans, but give the same plan to different people and you'll get different results.

Going back to the original pics, is the Seaton we're talking about the same Seaton in the pic below?

Click to expand...

Hi Pete
Yes, that's Seaton in Devon. That's an amazing photo to see. Did that come from a Beidekker book by any chance?
To answer your query re. the hexagonal shape, yes, that's what I originally thought too, as I think (if I remember correctly) it used to have a telescope on it. It wasn't until I'd found out about the CAS & it's use in conjunction with emergency battery mounts that I'd made a connection between the two, & as you said, the elaborate shape on top must have been built later.
Re. the different interpetations of plans, is that why some are called Variants?
Thankyou very much for the info.
Foxy

Hmm the hexagonal base would be about the right size for a 6pdr, could have had an earth embankment and sandbags around it for a bit of protection?
It wouldn't surprise me if the local council might have tidied it up a bit over the years especially if it had one of those rip off telescope thingies on it?


I'm certain I've read about Hotchkiss guns being used for coastal defence somewhere else but heres one example. I've seen whats left of the gun emplacement at Watchet and the ammo lockers match the 6pdr emplacements on the Taunton stopline so I'm fairly confident that the info below is accurate.

GUN EMPLACEMENT

Watchet, Somerset. Grid ref. ST 0738 4344


A concrete bunker, which may have held ammunition, stands behind a concrete apron which was the position of a gun [Hotchkiss] covering the entrance to the harbour.

Click to expand...

So whats this hexagonal base constructed from? Sort of looks like paving slabs to me ?

B

Foxylady;10847; said:

Hi Pete
Yes, that's Seaton in Devon. That's an amazing photo to see. Did that come from a Beidekker book by any chance?
To answer your query re. the hexagonal shape, yes, that's what I originally thought too, as I think (if I remember correctly) it used to have a telescope on it. It wasn't until I'd found out about the CAS & it's use in conjunction with emergency battery mounts that I'd made a connection between the two, & as you said, the elaborate shape on top must have been built later.
Re. the different interpetations of plans, is that why some are called Variants?
Thankyou very much for the info.
Foxy

Click to expand...

Hi Foxy,

no problem!

The problem with the telescope stand is that it's probably in the centre of the concrete, obscuring any evidence of a gun mount.

You could check out your local history society and see if anyone remembers what was there; there's probably people still around who can remember the day the battery was built.

Your local library may have a local studies archive too.

Re 'variants': if a pillbox doesn't bear some basic (or recogniseable) resemblence to Types 22-28 or that of a private manufacturer (e.g. Norcon), then yes, it becomes a 'variant' or 'non-standard type'. The pillboxes in your pics could equally be classed as 'defended buildings' (fortification of an existing building) though ; it's a nightmare! What DoB calls a 'machine gun emplacement' you may well class as a pillbox. Quite often, it's your call.

As for the photo, your guess is an excellent one; it may well have been in a Baedecker, but this scan comes from a genuine 1940 German Army intelligence book of photos and maps of the English south coast that I acquired last year, along with a shedload of German maps of various areas.

To be honest, such areas have so far meant little to me, living in Sussex and studying my local defences, but your photos and investigations have brought the area to life, and it doesn't take much to stimulate my interest in an area if others are enthused by it.

If I come across any mention of your patch while I'm in the archives, I'll let you know; I've just checked the National Archives online catalogue, and it seems that no documents relating to the Seaton battery have survived. However, there may be something buried in the archives waiting for you to dig up!

I remember you talking previously about the addiction of hunting pillboxes; if you do hit the archives (local or national), I guarentee your addiction will be taken to new heights!

There's three highs you can have:

1. Visiting a site and then finding out about it in the archives.
2. Reading about a site in the archives and then going and finding it; even if the main site has long gone, you'll probably find some evidence for it.
3. Being the first to uncover (and link) the documentary and physical evidence and getting your findings into the public domain before anyone else!

Then you're into the realms of stoopidity like me, shelling out a month's wages on original maps and stuff, next you'll be knocking up a website...

Otherwise, keep up the investigations!

Pete

Bishop;10853; said:

Hmm the hexagonal base would be about the right size for a 6pdr, could have had an earth embankment and sandbags around it for a bit of protection?
It wouldn't surprise me if the local council might have tidied it up a bit over the years especially if it had one of those rip off telescope thingies on it?So whats this hexagonal base constructed from? Sort of looks like paving slabs to me ?

Click to expand...

Yes, they are paving slabs, but it's not new (poss. within the last 30 odd years?), and theres a central circular infill. I thought that's where the telescope might have been (or gun, originally, if that's how it started out), but I think I'm wrong about the telescope, now. There used to be one, but I think it was further up the hill. Will check that out as soon as poss (need to get up there again, when I'll also check out Pete's info re. there usually being 2 CAS emplacements flanking each battery...see if I can find where the 2nd might have been if there'd been one).
That info re. the gun emplacement at Watchet is excellent.
Cheers Bishop
Foxy

Hey Foxlady I wonder if your local library might have a copy of
The Book of Seaton: Celebrating a Devon Seaside Town by Ted
Gosling, Halsgrove Press, Tiverton (2002) # ISBN-10: 1841141925
# ISBN-13: 978-1841141923?

The quote below is from the index.
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Seaton/SeatonBook.html

Cliff Field Used as a football pitch for games between Rags Alley and
The Town (1920s); land sports in the 1926 Seaton Regatta held here; gun
emplacement a target of German attacks (1940-43) 80, 106, 149

" c.1942 Photograph of gun emplacement 100

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Amazon link.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b/202-2859127-9622244?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Book+of+Seaton%3A+Celebrating+a+Devon+Seaside+Town&Go.x=8&Go.y=7&Go=Go

B

gaspirator;10854; said:

What DoB calls a 'machine gun emplacement' you may well class as a pillbox. Quite often, it's your call.

Click to expand...

But machine gun emplacements ARE a specific type of pillbox in their own right, they just don't have an FW/Type designation. They are generally referred to as Vickers Medium Machine Gun (MMG) Emplacements.

As a general design they are square and have a large 2-3' embrasure at the front with a large plinth inside for the MMG mount, then embrasures on the right and rear walls, and a square hole to the top left of the back wall as you look at it from inside for water cooling / smoke extraction. The entrance is usually on the left hand wall and is protected with a 2' blast wall.

Certainly in this neck of the woods anyway.

Bishop;10864; said:

Hey Foxlady I wonder if your local library might have a copy of
The Book of Seaton: Celebrating a Devon Seaside Town by Ted
Gosling, Halsgrove Press, Tiverton (2002) # ISBN-10: 1841141925
# ISBN-13: 978-1841141923?

Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks for that, Bishop. I'll certainly check that out. In fact I thought of Ted, as he's the town's local historian, but the only way I know of how to get hold of him is through the local museum (which he runs & doesn't open until May). I should have thought of looking for his books in the library
Cheers
Foxy

Indeed Seaton library does have a copy

clicky for details.

Local libraries are actually excellent for local info, they usually have all the local history books in stock, well worth checking out.

I currently have 20 books out from the library!

Thanks for that, Krela
I should have thought of all this myself. I even have the library shortcut on my desktop for checking loans, etc. (my excuse is that I've not been well all week!).

krela;10868; said:

I currently have 20 books out from the library!

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20!!! We're only allowed 8 out at a time!

krela;10866; said:

But machine gun emplacements ARE a specific type of pillbox in their own right, they just don't have an FW/Type designation. They are generally referred to as Vickers Medium Machine Gun (MMG) Emplacements.

As a general design they are square and have a large 2-3' embrasure at the front with a large plinth inside for the MMG mount, then embrasures on the right and rear walls, and a square hole to the top left of the back wall as you look at it from inside for water cooling / smoke extraction. The entrance is usually on the left hand wall and is protected with a 2' blast wall.

Certainly in this neck of the woods anyway.

Click to expand...

Good point about the Vickers emplacements; I'd forgotten about them! However, some apparently were converted Type 26's, and from a non-scientific search of DoB, they seem to exist mostly in the south-west, and around Cambs, Essex and Norfolk, whereas if you search for an FW/Type, you find them all over the UK and not just confined to certain regions. This may be related to the point I made earlier about different RE units having their favourite types of pillbox.

The point I was trying to make (and not very well, 'cos it was late at night), is that terminology can get confusing; I therefore prefer to class purpose-built concrete/masonry structures with weapons embrasures as 'pillboxes' (a type of structure) and distinguish it from its function as an MG emplacement.

This is perhaps a controversial point, but when I launch my database in the next few weeks, it will, as far as possible, classify structures as pillboxes where it seems reasonable to do so. After all, Type 24 pillboxes were designed as Bren Gun emplacements, but are never referred to as such.

If you search DoB for 'Machine Gun Emplacement' (as opposed to the Vickers MG empl.), you turn up numerous records, including structures at Pevensey Castle and Rye, which in my opinion, should be classified as pillboxes.

I take this view as somebody who has purposefully designed a database schema to classify defence works in order that the layman may easily find 'pillboxes'. I do this with the luxury of being the database designer, the field recorder and the archive researcher. I classify what I see in the field as a pillbox, what is called a pillbox by the RE unit who built it, and is listed in various Defence Schemes as the same.

Perhaps the DoB's unavoidable issue was that the database crew couldn't visit every single site being given to them, and if the recorder on the spot was seeing an MG empl. as opposed to a pillbox, then that's what went in the database.

So when my database goes live, I may well fall flat on my face over this point after a barrage of emails telling me I don't know what I'm doing, in which case I'll have to rethink.

I tend to follow my gut reaction on things like this, and it usually gets me into trouble

Pete