levens flame projector

[oldscrote]

Just a quick heads up to the military lot, this looks interesting on channel 4 nine o-clock tonight

http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-sommes-secret-weapon-a-time-team-special/

 

[krela]

I'm looking forward to it. Fascinating, if more than a little horrible.

 

[John_D]

I'll make a point of watching that, thanks for the 'heads up'

 

[podman]

Thanks for highlighting this, having missed the AA site one I'll make a point to watch this

cheer

 

[Dirus_Strictus]

These remains were discovered around 10th May 2010 - the large number of onlookers took many photographs that subsequently did the rounds at the time. It could be argued that the Fixed Gallery Flame Projector was the least successful of the methods of ending human life invented by Captain W. H. Livens. As reports of the period show, of the four devices deployed two were destroyed by shellfire and the remaining installations could only 'fire' for a very limited period. The German backpack flamethrower of the period was a far more versatile and effective weapon.

The Livens Projector on the other hand was a completely different story. These were 8" diameter mortar tubes that fired a steel canister filled with 30 lbs of flammable liquids or poisonous gases into the opposing trenches. Cheap and simple to set up in vast numbers, these devices allowed a very rapid rate of fire to be sustained without the need to reload the tubes. There was even a 'Cluster Bomb' like canister produced - it was filled with Mills grenades, nothing new in the realms of killing and maiming!

For those of us lacking the imagination to be able to picture the destructive power of this device, imagine sitting in your garden when suddenly a 5 gal drum of petrol lands at your feet and explodes. Add in a few drums of Phosgene and Mustard Gas and the end result ain't a nice sight.

Captain Livens was in charge of Petroleum Warfare during WWII - hence the pictures of the 'burning beaches' we are familiar with.

 

[night crawler]

I caught the last part of the program where they pulled up a section then went of to fire one that the Royal engineers built. I can only say it must have been a horrifying thing to see coming at you.

 

[oldscrote]

Jesus what a beast, I agree with you night crawler, I wouldn't fancy seeing that lot coming towards me either

 

[John_D]

Very interesting. I got the impression that they would have found a lot more of it had they had more digging time. Wonder what museum the finds are going to end up in?

 

[Dirus_Strictus]

The program's statement that this type of 'delivery' system was banned under International Conventions was somewhat misleading. In Vietnam a Douglas A1 Skyraider's compliment of Napalm was many times more devastating and effective than the Livens fixed system - the Military just reinvented the delivery system to circumvent the rules.

Reinvention was always high on the British agenda when the situation became a little fraught. I do not know if Livens had any input in the design of 'Crocodile', but this WWII mobile flame thrower is really no different in its objectives to the WWI static device. However; the Wehrmachts stroll through or around the fixed defenses of Europe proved once and for all that future battles would be largely mobile affairs. Crocodile was just one of the many specially modified armoured vehicles produced for D Day, they are collectively known as 'Hobart's Funnies' after Major-General Percy Hobart, whose ever active imagination came up with all manner of life saving specialist armoured vehicles.

Crocodile - A Churchill tank modified by the fitting of a flame-thrower in place of the hull machine gun. An armoured trailer, towed behind the tank, carried 400 Imperial gallons of fuel. The flamethrower had a range of over 120 yards and excelled at clearing bunkers if it could get within range without being knocked out.

 

[mookster]

I watched this too, was fascinating stuff and a truly terrifying weapon, even the recreated one was shocking....and awesome.

 

[swanseamale47]

Effective but unpleasent weapon.
I can't help but wonder why the TT dig has to stop after 3 days, it seems pointless to stop half way through a historic project like that, much better to complete the dig and preserve all the history rather than leave half of it behind. Real archaeologist's must be horrified.

 

[krela]

Effective but unpleasent weapon.
I can't help but wonder why the TT dig has to stop after 3 days, it seems pointless to stop half way through a historic project like that, much better to complete the dig and preserve all the history rather than leave half of it behind. Real archaeologist's must be horrified.

To "complete" a dig can take anything from a month to 5 years, depending on the site.

Time team limit it to 3 days partly because of finances and production constraints, and partly because in 3 days you can learn "enough" about a site to make it worthwhile and make sense of it without doing a "complete" job. Not to mention just because time team spent only 3 days on a dig doesn't block other people from coming in behind and doing much more if necessary.

Real achaeologists are far from horrified and I'm not sure what the distinction between a REAL versus a TT archaeologist is, given that TT use some of the worlds most experienced and respected archaeologists and historians. Time team is actually the most active and successful archaeology project in the whole of the UK, and have done a huge amount to further our understanding of our own history. Without them we simply wouldn't know anything about a lot of the places they visit. 3 days is most certainly better than the nothing many of these sites would get if TT didn't exist.

It's pretty much the only worthwhile and watchable thing C4 do.

 

[swanseamale47]

I'm afraid we'll have to argree to disagree there Krela, I don't think digging an archaeological site up with a backhoe in a mad rush is sound practice for real archaeologists, it's done to find a few "treasure" finds for good tv rather than for genuine archaeological reasons.
It may well encourage other later digs, but having seen the results of a tv restoration I have my doubts, the one I saw was done puely to make it look good for telly, there was no interest in the actual bulding or doing the job properly, indeed it was done so badly it actually cost more to put it right after the tv had been there than a proper resoration would have cost in the first place.

 

[TeeJF]

We went out to see the exhibition at the Peronne Museum during our recent fort visiting trip to Verdun this summer. They actually brought up very little of the projector if what is on display is anything to go by but they have built a full size replica and it runs the entire length of one hall and dissapears through a door way just for good measure. This was a seriously large beast!

Piccies of same...

The flame head which was forced up out of the ground to spray the flame. You can also see the part of one of the fuel tanks here too...

The next section back, multiple fuel tanks...

The last bit which has to dissapear through the wall into a store cupboard to fit it in! You can just make out the gas bank which powered the piston up the big bottom tube to blast the flammable liquid out of the nozzle end.

...and finally, a Livens Projector for comparison. Dispite it's simplicity (or perhaps because of it's simplicity) This was a much more effective weapon in the grand scheme of things!

 

[Walrus75]

Thanks for the piccies mate, saw the program earlier on this year. Very interesting and a fearsome weapon to face at that time.