Turner Brothers Asbestos & Textiles - Rochdale - November 2012

[wolfism]

From what I've read, at least some of the asbestos is waste located in dumps excavated and buried around the site.

 

[Hayman]

I wonder what PPE the security guard wears, to protect him from this hazardous site, and why the HSExhasnt taken action against the owners. As it stands, that asbestos dust is being carried invisibly on the breeze, putting people at risk, security guards included.

Perhaps the asbestos is not a risk if it is not disturbed. Is it brown, blue or white? Maybe the guard wears a disposable paper suit that has a hood to cover the head and hair, and uses a face mask. That was the normal clothing for people removing asbestos when I was in the central heating industry, where buildings needed to be cleared of it.

 

[PhilR]

Asbestos isn't harmful, if left undisturbed, especially if sealed in by paint. But a site that is in a partially collapsed state, and still falling apart, will be exposing the asbestos, and there's every chance that there will be asbestos in it. It does not matter whether it is amosite crocidolite or chrysotile, they're the three main forms, all with varying degrees of harmfulness. If working with asbestos, it's not only important to wear the right PPE and RPE,
it’s important to wear PPE in the following order:

1. Disposable coveralls. These should include a hood and elasticised cuffs. Choose the next size up to reduce the risk of tearing.

1. Shoes. Don’t wear shoes with laces as they are hard to decontaminate. Gumboots are safer as they can be wiped down.

1. Disposable shoe covers. These should be secure and cover the entire shoe. The soles must be non-slip.

1. Disposable gloves. Tuck gloves under the elasticised cuffs. If the cuffs are loose, tape them down to create a seal.

1. Face mask. Don’t use a standard dust mask. Always use a P2 rated particulate face mask. It should fit well and cover half your face. You must be clean shaven for the mask to seal properly.

1. Protective eyewear. Wear safety glasses to protect your eyes from dust.

If you didn't follow this, you were at risk of exposure to asbestos.
Anyone investigating a derelict building pre-2000, may have been exposed to asbestos. The HSE won't be drawn onbhow many asbestos fibres constitute a hazard, but the more fibres you arecexposed to, the greater the risk. Everyone must decide for themselves what constitutes an acceptable risk.

 

[Cuban B.]

This is a good Flickr page for those with an interest in asbestos. It is quite eye opening to see how many different materials once contained the mineral: Asbestorama

 

[Hayman]

Asbestos isn't harmful, if left undisturbed, especially if sealed in by paint. But a site that is in a partially collapsed state, and still falling apart, will be exposing the asbestos, and there's every chance that there will be asbestos in it. It does not matter whether it is amosite crocidolite or chrysotile, they're the three main forms, all with varying degrees of harmfulness. If working with asbestos, it's not only important to wear the right PPE and RPE,
it’s important to wear PPE in the following order:

1. Disposable coveralls. These should include a hood and elasticised cuffs. Choose the next size up to reduce the risk of tearing.
2. Shoes. Don’t wear shoes with laces as they are hard to decontaminate. Gumboots are safer as they can be wiped down.
3. Disposable shoe covers. These should be secure and cover the entire shoe. The soles must be non-slip.
4. Disposable gloves. Tuck gloves under the elasticised cuffs. If the cuffs are loose, tape them down to create a seal.
5. Face mask. Don’t use a standard dust mask. Always use a P2 rated particulate face mask. It should fit well and cover half your face. You must be clean shaven for the mask to seal properly.
6. Protective eyewear. Wear safety glasses to protect your eyes from dust.

If you didn't follow this, you were at risk of exposure to asbestos.
Anyone investigating a derelict building pre-2000, may have been exposed to asbestos. The HSE won't be drawn onbhow many asbestos fibres constitute a hazard, but the more fibres you arecexposed to, the greater the risk. Everyone must decide for themselves what constitutes an acceptable risk.

My nearest 'dice with death' regarding asbestos was when I visited a mine in Swaziland, And that was on the surface. Once the ore was brought up, it was crushed and treated with water in large tanks. This resulted in the tops being covered in slime - very risky if walking across them. I did ask to go underground - to see the men at work there - but was not allowed to. This was around 1970, when most people were unaware of the dangers related to asbestos. Now, I just wonder what the life expectancy was of those Swazis working in the mine. As for PPE........

 

[SARAH79]

It was known that asbestos was harmful from at least the 1920s.

Yet it was not banned (all sorts) in the UK until 2000.

Pretty much every p-ublic building built before 1990 has asbestos in it but hospitals and schools are especially affected.

 

[PhilR]

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that the Pliny the Younger knew that asbestos was dangerous, as the slaves mining it had a short lifespan.
As an aside, Amosite is a form of asbestos and it's a partial acronym of a trade name which ensued as a partial acronym for “Asbestos Mines of South Africa”, since this type of asbestos occurs primarily in that geographical region.

 

[PhilR]

It was known that asbestos was harmful from at least the 1920s.

Yet it was not banned (all sorts) in the UK until 2000.

Pretty much every p-ublic building built before 1990 has asbestos in it but hospitals and schools are especially affected.

The hazardous nature of asbestos mining was known by Pliny the Younger. As a rule of thumb, any building pre 2000 should be assumed to have asbestos containing materials. Artex and floor tiles were often acms.

 

[Hayman]

The hazardous nature of asbestos mining was known by Pliny the Younger. As a rule of thumb, any building pre 2000 should be assumed to have asbestos containing materials. Artex and floor tiles were often acms.

What would the Romans have used asbestos for? Did they treat it as another form of clay - to be moulded into different shapes? Or for its non-combustibility - in connection with ovens and metal working?

 

[Sarah Waldock]

What would the Romans have used asbestos for? Did they treat it as another form of clay - to be moulded into different shapes? Or for its non-combustibility - in connection with ovens and metal working?

they used it in fabrics, things like towels to use in the kitchen, which according to Strabo they threw in the fire to clean and they came out white. Also for cremation robes and the wicks of ceremonial candles and some wearing apparel. I remember having asbestos oven gloves in my youth, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Romans did likewise.

 

[Hayman]

they used it in fabrics, things like towels to use in the kitchen, which according to Strabo they threw in the fire to clean and they came out white. Also for cremation robes and the wicks of ceremonial candles and some wearing apparel. I remember having asbestos oven gloves in my youth, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Romans did likewise.

Thanks, Sarah. The idea of asbestos for cremation robes made sense, and as wicks for candles - everlasting flames? Now you mention it, I recall asbestos oven gloves. In the physics lab at school, we placed an asbestos disc over the Bunsen burner flame and then put objects to be heated on the disc. I like the idea of throwing towels onto a fire to clean them. I must try it with my asbestos underpants! Regarding the mention of workers in the asbestos mines not having long lives - presumably compared to the average at the time - I wonder how long miners in other mines - tin, silver, etc - lasted. I'm thinking of the cold damp conditions in most mines, plus pneumoconiosis from any dust particles.

 

[Sarah Waldock]

Thanks, Sarah. The idea of asbestos for cremation robes made sense, and as wicks for candles - everlasting flames? Now you mention it, I recall asbestos oven gloves. In the physics lab at school, we placed an asbestos disc over the Bunsen burner flame and then put objects to be heated on the disc. I like the idea of throwing towels onto a fire to clean them. I must try it with my asbestos underpants! Regarding the mention of workers in the asbestos mines not having long lives - presumably compared to the average at the time - I wonder how long miners in other mines - tin, silver, etc - lasted. I'm thinking of the cold damp conditions in most mines, plus pneumoconiosis from any dust particles.

Salt mines certainly killed people pretty quickly, and I believe the tin and silver mines the Romans had in Cornwall were not for the long-lived, though that may have been partly to the overdoses of uranium, as the rocks there are stiff with it - it being one of the minerals often associated with tin and silver. Mining has always been a pretty miserable occupation. So, with Romans and Silver mines, did anyone else read 'Treasure' in the early 70s with the tale of Mona and Beric, so beautifully illustrated by Jesus Fernandez?

 

[Hayman]

Salt mines certainly killed people pretty quickly, and I believe the tin and silver mines the Romans had in Cornwall were not for the long-lived, though that may have been partly to the overdoses of uranium, as the rocks there are stiff with it - it being one of the minerals often associated with tin and silver. Mining has always been a pretty miserable occupation. So, with Romans and Silver mines, did anyone else read 'Treasure' in the early 70s with the tale of Mona and Beric, so beautifully illustrated by Jesus Fernandez?

My Cornish friend who was a miner at Geevor until it ceased to be a productive mine is now into his sixties at least, and still healthy. He went on to work at Morrison's in Penzance. Perhaps the biggest danger from any uranium that might have been present alongside the tin ore was the radon gas it can give off. With much of Cornwall (Devon also) being underlain by granite, there has been great talk about the radon gas it can produce. Fans to circulate fresh air through the spaces beneath houses, etc have been suggested. What was specially unhealthy about salt mines? Apart from the general nature of mining in days gone by. Today's only UK salt mines - in Cheshire - are now fully mechanised, with high wide tunnels for the diggers and dump trucks.

 

[Sarah Waldock]

Makes sense, Hayman. The main danger with the salt mines was that it sucked the moisture out and damaged the lungs and left the poor bloody slaves permanently dehydrated. It was a punishment like being condemned to the galleys. Oh, and the sores which didn't heal

 

[Hayman]

Makes sense, Hayman. The main danger with the salt mines was that it sucked the moisture out and damaged the lungs and left the poor bloody slaves permanently dehydrated. It was a punishment like being condemned to the galleys. Oh, and the sores which didn't heal

Thanks, Sarah, for that info. I wonder if they took fresh water with them to compensate for the effects of such dehydration. When I was in the army in Aden, we were issued with salt tablets to compensate for the effects of the very hot sun, but seldom took them. It was up to us to drink sufficient fluids to make up for any dehydration. Workers at a chromium plating works in Devon in the 1950s had milk bought for them by the firm to counter the effects of the fumes from the plating baths. Whether that had a scientific basis or not I do not know.

 

[Sarah Waldock]

I suspect slaves were not given so much luxury as life-saving water. I can't see any scientific basis in milk as a chelating agent, but milk does increase the amount of mucus produced so maybe it protected the mucus membranes somewhat?

 

[Hayman]

I suspect slaves were not given so much luxury as life-saving water. I can't see any scientific basis in milk as a chelating agent, but milk does increase the amount of mucus produced so maybe it protected the mucus membranes somewhat?

Without the slaves, who would have done the mining? Just as pit ponies needed to be kept in good condition to do their jobs, so with the slaves. If the milk increased the amount of mucus, maybe the mucus absorbed some of the fumes and diverted them into the digestive system if the mucus was swallowed. If the mucus was hawked up and spat out, the absorbed fumes were got rid of that way.

 

[Sarah Waldock]

there were always more slaves - they came from the incessant warfare or as tribute, or from criminals. Pit ponies were probably more valued, and they were cared for to the bare minium, in many cases.
It seems possible, I guess. and milk mitigated internal ulcers if not the external ones. Probably there were better solutions .

 

[Hayman]

there were always more slaves - they came from the incessant warfare or as tribute, or from criminals. Pit ponies were probably more valued, and they were cared for to the bare minium, in many cases.
It seems possible, I guess. and milk mitigated internal ulcers if not the external ones. Probably there were better solutions .

True there were always more slaves to be obtained, but a slave already experienced in mining might have had more value than one who had never even been underground.

 

[Sarah Waldock]

hmm the impression I've always had, which might not be true, is that they didn't always live long enough to be experienced as such.