2 FW3/22 pillboxes with a difference

[Munchh]

To my awareness no bofors 20/25mm guns were used for home defence in the UK. In fact I have never even seen a reference to them anywhere in a ww2 context, and indeed on reading that page it would appear that they are both post WW2 models (apart from the m/40 which I don't think the UK purchased).

The most likely explanation is Bren or Lewis. I've made it clear I'm only floating a theory to be explored.

I don't know whether any 20mm m/40's were purchased or used by the UK either. My only point in relation to either this or the 25mm m/32 (which was in service with the Swedish Navy in 1936 ie not a post WW2 model) was that they both existed during WW2.

Jonney has said that "they did seem a lot bigger than your average type 22" Because of this and the other anomalies, I'm keeping an open mind.

 

[jonney]

not sure about the tripod because the mountings are in a straight line and the square post holes are approx 3 to 3 1/2 foot each side of the center mounting point.

 

[cptpies]

Don't forget the 20mm Oerlikon. That would have fitted.

 

[Munchh]

not sure about the tripod because the mountings are in a straight line and the square post holes are approx 3 to 3 1/2 foot each side of the center mounting point.

That and Bill's thread was what made me think twice Jonney. If there was a pedastal there would there not be some sign of it? If it was intended to be for a tripod wouldn't it be all concrete? The grass growing centrally suggests to me that there's a depression of some kind and I can't explain the square sockets yet either. It just looks like it's laid out for a gun mount.

In deference to Krela, I freely admit that I'm clutching at straws with the 20/25mm Bofors though. The mobile version of the m/32 was never put into production during the war based on what I've found so far which possibly makes it unlikely. The 25mm that went into service in 1936 was the same weapon but in a Naval turret.

Don't forget the 20mm Oerlikon. That would have fitted.

Yes, I considered it in an earlier post on this thread capn although again this seems more of a Naval AA weapon and availability was an issue I believe. Also the French had some Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20mm canon and we apparently were interested in them during WW2 but again you have to question availability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404

It's certainly a puzzle that I should very much like the answer to.

 

[jonney]

That and Bill's thread was what made me think twice Jonney. If there was a pedastal there would there not be some sign of it? If it was intended to be for a tripod wouldn't it be all concrete? The grass growing centrally suggests to me that there's a depression of some kind and I can't explain the square sockets yet either. It just looks like it's laid out for a gun mount.

In deference to Krela, I freely admit that I'm clutching at straws with the 20/25mm Bofors though. The mobile version of the m/32 was never put into production during the war based on what I've found so far which possibly makes it unlikely. The 25mm that went into service in 1936 was the same weapon but in a Naval turret.



Yes, I considered it in an earlier post on this thread capn although again this seems more of a Naval AA weapon and availability was an issue I believe. Also the French had some Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20mm canon and we apparently were interested in them during WW2 but again you have to question availability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404

It's certainly a puzzle that I should very much like the answer to.

Well in respect to naval guns there are quite a few gun emplacements along the coast round that area that used naval hotchkiss guns so it is possible that naval AA weapons were used. I certainly would like an answer to this puzzle

 

[jonney]

If you look at the link I posted earlier on the mount on the other 22 (the one I didn't get to) is exactly the same as in this photo

 

[Munchh]

If you look at the link I posted earlier on the mount on the other 22 (the one I didn't get to) is exactly the same as in this photo

It does indeed look the same Jonney. Looks like you might have answered your own question after all. Well done mate. There's also a lonesome tuft of grass to the right that could be occupying a square socket which for me might just wrap this up. Go and have a lie down mate.

 

[jonney]

only thing is that mount on that pillbox is bolted through the roof and the other two have no bolts or bolt holes so it looks like the other two had different mounts so it could be back to the drawing board

 

[Munchh]

only thing is that mount on that pillbox is bolted through the roof and the other two have no bolts or bolt holes so it looks like the other two had different mounts so it could be back to the drawing board

Only in as much as we haven't found the exact mounting(s) used on your boxes.The sockets are present in the same place and alignment on all three. Looking through more of the photos on your link there is another shot of the mounting from further away as well as another more obvious square socket. Looking at the line of the field and hedges in both shots, this second socket is clearly the partner of the one in close up filled with grass and therefore corresponds to the layout you found on the boxes you visited.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23119954@N07/2613716034/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23119954@N07/2612886249/lightbox/

There's also an Acklington PB with Turnbull mounts in it, did you see it?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23119954@N07/2612893431/lightbox/

So, three 20/25mm AA setups?, possibly recycled (or commandeered) Naval guns on varying mountings?. It fits the mindset for WW2 British resourcefulness in times of need. Another step closer to the answer perhaps.

Btw, what's the lozenge's role in this do you think?

Also, what's the ricochet wall's position and alignment in relation to the sockets? just a thought

 

[cptpies]

If I remember correctly Dobinson states there were a number of 20mm Oerlikon employed as LAA defence at airfields. Mounts may well have been jerry rigged affairs to suit what was available.

 

[jonney]

The sockets were at right angles to the ricochet wall on either side.The type 22 with the turnbull mounts is right next to the east coast mainline and is at the sw end of the airfield so it defended both of these (it's one of the two left to get to). That lozenge pictured is between this air field and raf eshott (there is a report on raf eshott here [ame]http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=16137[/ame]) and I am assuming that it's defensive role was in defending the road that runs between the two stations

 

[krela]

Also the French had some Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20mm canon and we apparently were interested in them during WW2 but again you have to question availability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404

In reading through some notes I have discovered that this Hispano was reasonably commonly used in an LAA role by the Home Guard, so this is a viable alternative.

Whilst Oerlikons were 20mm they were also very rare, much less used than the Hispano.

 

[jonney]

Cheers for that Krela

 

[outkast]

Hi all

Not wanting to hijack the thread but I got a couple of shots of a pill box or two I'd like to share. I actually came here to photograph the unusual concrete slab type lookout I'm hoping someone can give me more info on as to what it actually was constructed for.

This pillbox is on the lelant side overlooking the estuary. On one side is hayle harbour and the other looking out to sea. It is now slap bang in the middle of a golf course.

The sand has eroded away from the pillbox making entry a slight challenge.

Some internals.. looks like some parties have been held in here..

outside again

Walking towards the sea there was another box visible which was well inside the golfcourse grounds so I didn't venture there. Then I went down on the beach and looked back which revealed yet another box...

By this point I was getting jiggered so didn't climb up and investigate this box further.

This is the "lookout" that drew me here..Looks out towards the sea.

Underneath was an access hatch which was well and truly locked..

A close up of the opening revealed a single light bulb which appears to have fallen back in to the lookout and an old school style massive cctv camera. You can just make the corner of this in the shot..

Any idea what this was originally for ?????

check local records to see if there was a practice bombing range in the sea in front of it as this structure may be connected to that.

 

[jonney]

check local records to see if there was a practice bombing range in the sea in front of it as this structure may be connected to that.

From what I can gather this area used to be home to a costal battery.

 

[night crawler]

Hi all

Not wanting to hijack the thread but I got a couple of shots of a pill box or two I'd like to share. I actually came here to photograph the unusual concrete slab type lookout I'm hoping someone can give me more info on as to what it actually was constructed for.

This pillbox is on the lelant side overlooking the estuary. On one side is hayle harbour and the other looking out to sea. It is now slap bang in the middle of a golf course.

The sand has eroded away from the pillbox making entry a slight challenge.

Some internals.. looks like some parties have been held in here..

outside again

Walking towards the sea there was another box visible which was well inside the golfcourse grounds so I didn't venture there. Then I went down on the beach and looked back which revealed yet another box...

By this point I was getting jiggered so didn't climb up and investigate this box further.

This is the "lookout" that drew me here..Looks out towards the sea.

Underneath was an access hatch which was well and truly locked..

A close up of the opening revealed a single light bulb which appears to have fallen back in to the lookout and an old school style massive cctv camera. You can just make the corner of this in the shot..

Any idea what this was originally for ?????

That pillbox with the slight erosion is nothing, I've seen worse (not posting it again). I think I'd have gone for the pillbox up the cliff, so near and yet so far.

 

[jonney]

That pillbox with the slight erosion is nothing, I've seen worse (not posting it again). I think I'd have gone for the pillbox up the cliff, so near and yet so far.

looking on GE there are a few pillboxes round the golf course, I'd have tried them all

 

[Munchh]

Jonney, just seen a pic on another forum supposedly of a Type 22 near Mundesley. The poster describes it as having a mount on top for a 20mm Oerlikon. Interesting eh? Worth looking into perhaps.

 

[krela]

Jonney, just seen a pic on another forum supposedly of a Type 22 near Mundesley. The poster describes it as having a mount on top for a 20mm Oerlikon. Interesting eh? Worth looking into perhaps.

Very much depends where he gets his info from.

 

[Munchh]

Very much depends where he gets his info from.

Agreed. He says it's for an Oerlikon but I'm not taking that at face value either. I've located the PB, ADS says this about it;

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/specColl/dob/ai_full_r.cfm?refno=936&CFID=4836486&CFTOKEN=40812256